Stop Telling Women To Do Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#31

Post by SoftwareMaven » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 4:48 PM UTC

DaniFong wrote: post #21

There are many women, myself included, who have directly benefited from the message that I could (if not, should ) do a startup. I was previously on an academic treadmill. It was more or less assumed that if you were capable, you wanted to be a professor. It took awhile before I could really see the pros/cons of tying my research to that particular structure. I think a lot of women -- highly competent women -- are st…

I would really love to see some research on this topic, because I would love to know if that is really that different from men. Growing up, I was told many options about what I could do: Founder was never one of them. It wasn't until I took stock and looked around at my corporate career that I decided it wasn't working for me.

And that doesn't sound too different from your experience. I want my daughters to have every option available to them, from stay-at-home mom to founder. I obliquely can't speak for the societal pressures of being a woman, but the educational aspects between my boys and my girls has not been noticeably different.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#32

Post by zzzeek » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 4:58 PM UTC

AznHisoka wrote: post #2

I love Penelope Trunk and her political incorrectness. Her advice may always be controversial, but she's never afraid to speak her mind. And she's right too about women. Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups. Most also want the social companionship from friends/family as they raise children (which is missing today as most people don't live near extended family), but they…

"natural imperatives" also say that people are attracted to the opposite sex. So what do we do with all those pesky gays? Probably encourage them to go to church more. Certainly, any kind of "if you think you might be gay , that's OK, be gay !" is just encouragement against "natural imperatives" - we should "Stop" doing that !

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#33

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 4:59 PM UTC

lindseybieda wrote: post #29

I'm not sure why people still take Penelope Trunk seriously. http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/16/blueprint-for-a-wom... This should be enough to convince you that she is full of shit. She doesn't practice what she preaches and holds very strongly to the status quo. She actively discourages women from entering the startup world, so no wonder she is annoyed that some people are trying to encourage women. http://bl…

She doesn't practice what she preaches...

Pretty much anyone who says "don't make the same mistakes I made" doesn't practice what they preach.

She actively discourages women from entering the startup world...

Your link does not support your claim. If you disagree, please quote some text from your link where she discourages women from entering the startup world.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#34

Post by cousin_it » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:00 PM UTC

Why is it suddenly about "happiness" and "respect"? Stop moving the goalposts!!! If society would benefit from more women doing startups (as is often alleged), and men are encouraged to change their behavior in the name of that goal, why shouldn't women be encouraged to change their behavior too?

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#35

Post by rachelbythebay » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:01 PM UTC

This almost sounds like a front to keep everyone but the "true believers" out. If you try to make a startup three times, do they finally accept you and let you in?

I will continue to lean on everyone I know. One of them might break loose and go on to do something interesting, and then I will feel good about it. It might even improve the situation as a whole for the rest of us.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#36

Post by inuhj » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

One thing that I took away from this is that there are plenty of women in their early 30s who have children who want to work part-time. I've heard this echoed in my girlfriend's circles as well. Perhaps a marketplace for mom's seeking part-time work is in order.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#37

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

DaniFong wrote: post #21

There are many women, myself included, who have directly benefited from the message that I could (if not, should ) do a startup. I was previously on an academic treadmill. It was more or less assumed that if you were capable, you wanted to be a professor. It took awhile before I could really see the pros/cons of tying my research to that particular structure. I think a lot of women -- highly competent women -- are st…

None of what you say is specific to women. As a former academic, I was told that a startup is a legitimate career path precisely once (in a grad student seminar, by Stephen Wolfram). Plenty of men are stuck in the same treadmills you describe, and there are many complaints that the grad school and finance treadmills also have too few women.

I don't think Trunk is asserting that encouraging women to do startups "co-opts free will". I think her main complaint is that it is bad advice for most women, i.e. many women who take such advice will be less happy than they otherwise could be.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#38

Post by trocker » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:10 PM UTC

noamsml wrote: post #15

trocker wrote: post #3

http://croak.eu/vm5Tjy #whyAllTheMen?!

Hm. While croakit is an interesting idea, I'd note that croakit comments aren't searchable or quotable. Sometimes text is better.

yup true, completely agreed.But doesn't it make more sense to discuss the things meant to be discussed? :)

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#39

Post by araneae » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:13 PM UTC

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #12

AznHisoka wrote: post #2

I love Penelope Trunk and her political incorrectness. Her advice may always be controversial, but she's never afraid to speak her mind. And she's right too about women. Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups. Most also want the social companionship from friends/family as they raise children (which is missing today as most people don't live near extended family), but they…

> [Women's] natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them This is the 21st century. Are we really still talking about "natural imperatives"? If nothing else, note that women are having fewer and fewer children, later and later - clearly, they are feeling this "natural imperative" less and less. Traditional gender roles are unfair to women wanting to have a career, unfair to men who want to stay home with t…

>This is the 21st century. Are we really still talking about "natural imperatives"?

I do think that "imperative" is a little strong. But males are biologically different from females in all species, and in all species this translates into behavioral differences. There's no such thing as a species where males and females don't show behavioral differences, and in particular in regards to mating behavior and reproduction.

Certainly humans, as a whole, in first world countries are failing to mate effectively. Children are being had later or not at all. But women still show a comparatively greater interest, despite this overall trend. It would be foolish to claim that the 21st century has made natural behavioral differences irrelevant.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#40

Post by gcb » Sun, Dec 11, 2011, 5:13 PM UTC

Loved it.

At work they have one organization about Women in Tech. That does nothing besides call out the misconception that women need help for some reason.

In my previous country that would outright illegal. You know, sexism. Here it's seen as a great thing. Well, we didn't have minorities guettos on every city either...