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Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

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Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#331

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lex's comment did not strike me as a dig. i am actually concerned by your comment because it makes me wonder if i am missing other things too? it just doesnt seem like a dig. it seems like he thought of something funny and wanted to share it. am i alone in this? and also i dont understand your assertion that it was some kind of cynical maneuver to re-frame the question. he could have also said "yes, more sensors are…

> did not strike me as a dig It wasn't a dig. It was calling out a bullshit move that, in my opinion, Andrej deployed out of panic more than strategically. (My evidence for this being Andrej eventually gave a good answer.)

I don't think it was calling out a bullshit move (and definitely not a dig)

a) Saying "I wonder when language models will do this" is a total Lex thing to say. That's what he's into.

b) Lex is almost always a softball interviewer, though one with interestingly deep knowledge. He interviews experts, and he errs on the side of respect. If you're looking for hardball, don't listen to Lex, it's not what he does. He almost never calls out bullshit, and he especially doesn't call out evasion.

Now, it's still possible that it was a panic-deployed evasion on Andrej's part, and whether or not that was his mentality, I agree that he gained nothing by it, and did not in fact reframe the question at all.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#332
post #325
post #313

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I don't know if you're addressing what makes a good "EV" or just listing some features you personally care about. If the former, then 360 degree camera and build quality has little to do with an EV. Tesla is a young company and build quality has dramatically improved over the years (see Munro) and will continue to do so. Tesla has close to 360 camera coverage, it just hasn't added it in software. All it takes is a so…

Maybe in US. Tesla has nothing to throw against some serious cars like Mercedes EQS or EQS SUV. Hyundai is also catching up. Charging infrastructure isn’t an issue in Europe anymore and is getting better and better every year. Tesla supercharger for free at the beginning was a big deal. That’s why I am looking for used model X from 2017 right now. 5000€ in free electricity a year is a nice advantage. I also have open…

> Tesla has nothing to throw against some serious cars like Mercedes EQS or EQS SUV.

Besides sensationalist comments, do you actually have a list of what areas the Mercedes excel that Tesla doesn't?

I can't take "serious car" seriously - like what, Tesla is kidding?

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#333

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That was hilarious. Basically (unless this needs a reframing/realignment/repositioning/reorienting): Q: "are less sensors less safe/effective?" A: "well more sensors are costly to the organization and add more tech debt so safety is orthogonal and not worth answering".

It is a hard question to answer. It’s like asking if more programmers on a project will allow it to be completed faster with higher quality. Ya, theoretically they could, in practice not likely. More sensors are like more programmers, theoretically they can be safer and more effective, but in practice they won’t be. Sensor fusion is as hard a problem as scaling up a software team.

It is not a hard question to answer at all. LIDAR will make a self driving car safer, period. There is a lot of research to back this up.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did not strike me as a dig It wasn't a dig. It was calling out a bullshit move that, in my opinion, Andrej deployed out of panic more than strategically. (My evidence for this being Andrej eventually gave a good answer.)

i just dont get it. lex says "lets re-frame the question: can a language model drive a car?" this doesnt have any insinuations about andrej's intentions or motives. if it were calling out bullshit it would be "lets re-frame the question: why is elon musk never wrong?" lex kisses elon musks ass, last time i checked hes on musks side in the lidar debate and also lex has a record of listening patiently no matter what an…

See my sibling comment, but I agree with you, especially about Lex's track record, and I think the other commenters are projecting.

And you're right, reframing a question is like THE MOVE for academics, so it's completely not evidence that Andrej was making "a bullshit move" (although it's also a classic move for PR flaks, so it's possible he was making a bullshit move).

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#335

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> We want the automation to do what a human pilot would do. And that works with eyes. Humans can’t really turn senses off, so they have coffee when driving. Touch and hearing are quite important to “read the road”. Equilibrium too.

Humans work with much more than just eyes. We subconsciously move our heads in case of uncertainty in the stereo vision algorithm and have pretty good IMUs. And yet, everyone has the experience of wrongly focusing on a repeating vertical pattern (vertical blinds or coiled cord for example) and getting disoriented. And every experienced driver has experienced at least some of the following: a moment of glare from a we…

A good human driver also gauges the limits of their own experience and 'phase transitions' into a more cautious mode of driving.

Is that something the algos can do? Infer the familiarity of the situation?

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#336
post #232

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You have to eventually decide to trust one or the other, in real-time. So having multiple failure modes doesn't solve the problem entirely. This is called 'Fusion', meaning you have to fuse information coming from multiple sensors together. There are trade offs because while you gain different views of the environment from different sensors, the fusion becomes more complicated and has to be sorted out in software rel…

> There are trade offs because while you gain different views of the environment from different sensors, the fusion becomes more complicated and has to be sorted out in software reliably in real-time. If you're against having multiple sensors though, the rational conclusion would be to just have one sensor, but Tesla would be the first to tell you that one of the advantages their cars have over human drivers is they…

This is one side of the argument. The other side of the argument is that what matters more than the raw sensor data is constructing an accurate representation of the actual 3D environment. So an argument could be made (which is what this guy and Tesla are gambling on and have designed the company around), is that the the construction & training of the Neural out-weighs the importance of the actual sensor inputs. In the sense that even with only two eyes (for example) this is enough when combined with the ability of the brain to infer the actual position and significance of real objects for successful navigation. So as a company with limited R&D & processing bandwidth, you might want to devote more resources to machine learning rather than sensor processing. I personally don't know what the answer is, just saying there is this view.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was hilarious. Basically (unless this needs a reframing/realignment/repositioning/reorienting): Q: "are less sensors less safe/effective?" A: "well more sensors are costly to the organization and add more tech debt so safety is orthogonal and not worth answering".

Uh, that's not at all a good paraphrase. Q: "Does [removing some sensors] make the perception problem harder, or easier?" (note, this is literally what Lex asked, your restatement is misleading) A: [paraphrasing] "Well more sensor diversity makes it harder to focus on the thing that I believe really moves the needle, so by narrowing the space of consideration, I think we'll get better results" Karpathy might not be t…

It is definitely a clever marketing pitch, as there is plenty of evidence to back up that LIDAR makes self-driving cars significantly safer. However, despite the hype, Teslas aren't really self driving cars at the moment, so it seems an acceptable commercial decision wrapped up in a clever sales pitch.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#338
post #281

This whole question about the vision boils down to "humans don't need it so cars should not need it too" the problem with this statement is that humans does not have wheels to move around, they have legs, but wheels are ridiculously simple compared to 4 legs tapping 160km/h on a highway. Same for birds - they also does not need jet engines to fly around, but imagine Airbus A380 flapping its wings and what kind of com…

Human binocular vision is what has been used to drive cars up until now, so it can be done (with a few thousand million years of iteration). Ideally cars will be self-driving using only passive sensors - but I do think that Musk/Tesla completely missed the value of active sensors in training.

Pretty sure humans haven't been striving for drivers licenses for millions of years...

Tesla does use Lidar on a small number of test vehicles for assessing ground truth. However, they have built enough of a data pipeline and fleet data acquisition to use repeat clips to determine ground truth better than human labelers.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the safety delta was low after removing them, as 'tis with Lidar, absolutely.

It's also possible their LIDAR implementation was poor. Waymo uses LIDAR and has fewer incidents per mile.

Waymo has HD maps that require regular 'trawling', just like Google Street view. They are also very conservative in turns, generally avoiding unprotected lefts. They also are much less human-like.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#340
post #280

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THANK YOU. Reading this thread was getting to me because so many comments say humans drive eyes only. I use far more than just vision driving: - sound, for emergency vehicles, detecting vehicles outside of my field of view if my windows are down or the vehicle is loud, tire sound (especially in snow and rain), engine sound (more feedback in snow or ice about what my tires are doing) - touch (steering feedback, gives…

It's worth noting that most autonomous vehicle solutions have dedicated microphones for emergency vehicles and sensors that can detect slip. I had a little dashboard measuring wheel slip at . It mainly ended up mapping train tracks and potholes.

where company := gm ?
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