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Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

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Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#21

Post by DaniFong »

There are many women, myself included, who have directly benefited from the message that I could (if not, should) do a startup.

I was previously on an academic treadmill. It was more or less assumed that if you were capable, you wanted to be a professor. It took awhile before I could really see the pros/cons of tying my research to that particular structure.

I think a lot of women -- highly competent women -- are stuck in similar treadmills -- Law School, Finance, Consulting, Grad School. If they're not presented if this alternate life path, it may take many more year for them to get started.

And that may be when they have a family, and that may put a damper on startup ambitions.

Absolutely people have the right to make their own choices, and it's possible that different genders/families/ethnicities/what-have-you will make statistically different choices.

But I really don't think we are doing such a great job with presenting women, or the population at large really, with the full range of what's possible. There are a lot more people out there who would be happier doing a startup, or any kind of entrepreneurial endeavor focussed on something they are really passionate about, than are actually doing one.

There's really a lot we can do in this arena, and I don't think this industry's exhortations or encouragement really represents some kind of dismissal of women's choices or co-opts free will.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#22

Post by srbloom »

tryitnow wrote: post #14

Actually, I've met a lot of guys who are in high powered positions who have implied or stated explicitly they'd much rather spend more time at home. And these guys have told younger guys, mentees, to pretty much spend more time as dads and husbands. This advice is becoming increasingly common. So, um yeah, Penelope is pretty much wrong right out of the gate.

Your anecdote against hers. Thrilling.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#23

Post by yummyfajitas »

bethling wrote: post #7

I think it makes sense to encourage women to consider doing a start up - yes for some women raising a family is the fulfillment that they want. But for those that do want to focus on a career, it's very possible to feel left out. Although (intellectually) you know that there's no reason why if this guy or that guy can do it, you can't - there's something somewhat sobering and potentially disheartening about almost ev…

Although (intellectually) you know that there's no reason why if this guy or that guy can do it, you can't - there's something somewhat sobering and potentially disheartening about almost everyone being "different" than you.

I do lots of activities where everyone is "different" than me in some way.

I work in fashion, though I definitely stand out from the typical fashion crowd. (Most people who meet me assume I'm a tradesman of some sort.) At my company I'm an ethnic minority of one. I'm also an ethnic minority at my primary hobby.

In my experience, it's mainly women who think "omfg, everyone is different from me, what'll I do?" Men just think "those people are doing cool things, I'd like to be like them."

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#24

Post by burgerbrain »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #12
AznHisoka wrote: post #2

I love Penelope Trunk and her political incorrectness. Her advice may always be controversial, but she's never afraid to speak her mind. And she's right too about women. Their natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them - not to do startups. Most also want the social companionship from friends/family as they raise children (which is missing today as most people don't live near extended family), but they…

> [Women's] natural imperative is to raise children and nurture them This is the 21st century. Are we really still talking about "natural imperatives"? If nothing else, note that women are having fewer and fewer children, later and later - clearly, they are feeling this "natural imperative" less and less. Traditional gender roles are unfair to women wanting to have a career, unfair to men who want to stay home with t…

"Are we really still talking about "natural imperatives"?"

I am puzzled by this sort of comment. There are certainly things that I do as a male that I consider to be built in behavior. I do not see any reason to think that women would not have similar.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#25

Post by gvb »

tryitnow wrote: post #14

Actually, I've met a lot of guys who are in high powered positions who have implied or stated explicitly they'd much rather spend more time at home. And these guys have told younger guys, mentees, to pretty much spend more time as dads and husbands. This advice is becoming increasingly common. So, um yeah, Penelope is pretty much wrong right out of the gate.

Come again? I was agreeing until I read your conclusion. Your references are agreeing with Penelope from a position of hindsight: sacrificing family for your job is a bad choice.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#26

Post by hnecib »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #20
hnecib wrote: post #4

I think she made some very good points. It was a bit ranty, and self contradictory at times: >On top of that there is evidence that the members of the VC community go out of their way to attract women. Of course, this makes sense. VCs look for underserved markets. Women are likely to address different markets than men, and since there are so few women founders compared to men founders, it’s likely that women are addr…

Yes. What's a startup business, or even a traditional career, going to get you in the end? Admiration? Adulation? Money money money? As most people with children will be able to tell you, all of those things are vapid and empty compared to spending time with your children . Perhaps many women choosing to stay home raising families instead of pursuing careers have found something more rewarding to do with their time.

>all of those things are vapid and empty compared to spending time with your children.

Yes, for some. Come to think of it, spending time with the kids is probably the number one reason men downshift (by choice) as well.

What is complicated and not fully understood by me is how accurately we have accounted for women who voluntarily choose to downshift in all of the 'glass ceiling' statistics. I think that the glass ceiling is very real, but I just wonder how trustworthy the stats are. It's complicated.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#28

Post by apinstein »

DaniFong wrote: post #21

There are many women, myself included, who have directly benefited from the message that I could (if not, should ) do a startup. I was previously on an academic treadmill. It was more or less assumed that if you were capable, you wanted to be a professor. It took awhile before I could really see the pros/cons of tying my research to that particular structure. I think a lot of women -- highly competent women -- are st…

Was the message you responded to a generic "startups are a viable path for you" or that message, but aimed at women? I am assuming the latter, and that you're making the case that for women to receive the argument, it has to be promoted from a women-centric perspective, is that right?

If so, I can definitely believe that. I understand and agree with the author's point about women empirically being less interested in a startup lifestyle and disagreeing with how some people pitch startups to women. However anytime you're marketing an idea to people, sometimes it's best to take a niche approach to reaching them.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#29

Post by lindseybieda »

I'm not sure why people still take Penelope Trunk seriously.

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/16/blueprint-for-a-wom...

This should be enough to convince you that she is full of shit. She doesn't practice what she preaches and holds very strongly to the status quo.

She actively discourages women from entering the startup world, so no wonder she is annoyed that some people are trying to encourage women.

http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/03/05/the-workplace-shoul...

She regards inequality and unbalance as a non-problem and generalizes that all women are the same.

http://venturebeat.com/2011/11/29/woman-problem-what-woman-p...

http://baileybear.hubpages.com/hub/Penelope-Trunk-Brazen-Car...

Listening to anything this woman says seems to do more harm than good.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#30

Post by mml »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #20
hnecib wrote: post #4

I think she made some very good points. It was a bit ranty, and self contradictory at times: >On top of that there is evidence that the members of the VC community go out of their way to attract women. Of course, this makes sense. VCs look for underserved markets. Women are likely to address different markets than men, and since there are so few women founders compared to men founders, it’s likely that women are addr…

Yes. What's a startup business, or even a traditional career, going to get you in the end? Admiration? Adulation? Money money money? As most people with children will be able to tell you, all of those things are vapid and empty compared to spending time with your children . Perhaps many women choosing to stay home raising families instead of pursuing careers have found something more rewarding to do with their time.

You hit the nail on the head.

My wife gets the dismissive smile and nod from career women whenever she answers their obligatory "what do you do for a living" question.

This makes her feel bad for raising our children.

This only lasts until I point out that these career women get the awesome privilege that men have enjoyed for hundreds of years: slaving away for some overseer, pushing paper in a cube and staring blankly at fluorescent lights, having distant relationships with your own offspring, and dealing with office politics for 30 years, then dropping dead.

Families also get the added benefit of having their children raised by a rotating crew of $10/hr wage slaves at some cut-rate daycare from infancy, in exchange for about what a 2nd house would cost, because dad isn't likely to want to stay home either.

The neighborhood also "benefits" by being an absolute ghost town during work hours, so people who are doing the work of raising children are left bereft of any sort of neighborhood support (remember when you could just let kids run wild outdoors, or your mom stopping next door for coffee?).

The fulfillment angle of no-parent society is pretty slim I think.

Raising kids is about the only fulfilling thing left in the world that anyone you know is likely to do. Families with no full time parent (mom or dad, mind you) is a bizarre and frightening development.

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