Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#271

Post by pokerhobo » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:11 AM UTC

touch_abs wrote: post #204

ALittleLight wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could use LiDAR well enough then it would solve the problem. Of course, if you could use vision well enough it would solve the problem too.

The big limits of LiDAR are cost, more than anything. There have been dozens of public driving trials where from a functionality level the answer has been positive (apart from traffic lights, the bastards), but nobody wants to buy a solution with a six figure BOM, before integration.

Lidar also has problems in rain, fog, snow, etc… FLIR would actually be better

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#272

Post by xodjmk » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:15 AM UTC

freejazz wrote: post #250

xodjmk wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lidar vs. Stereo camera vs. multiple cameras vs. ultrasound is a separate problem that engineers are trying to solve, not how can we sell cheaper mops. The decision to not use Lidar, as he says, and is the common debate being explored by people working on autonomous driving is whether it makes more sense to focus on stereo image sensors with highly integrated machine learning, or maybe use Lidar or other sensors and…

"Lidar vs. Stereo camera vs. multiple cameras vs. ultrasound is a separate problem that engineers are trying to solve, not how can we sell cheaper fucking mops." Okay? Tesla is a car company and they are absolutely trying to sell a cheaper car. That's obvious to anyone that's been in one. "Both methods have trade-offs." Right, isn't that why most other systems use both?

Both methods have trade-offs as in there are positive and negative merits for both approaches. Using both systems requires the sensor data to be fused together to make real-time decisions. This is the whole point, why people are trivializing this problem, and why it is easy to believe that they are just trying to scam people by going cheap on using multiple sensors. If you want to argue that it is better to use Lidar then explain why apart from 'others do it'. The podcast, and previous explanations by this guy and others that agree with him (which occurred way before some shortage issues) is about what is the best way to solve autonomous driving. You don't solve it by simply adding more sensors. There are multiple hours of technical information about why this guy Andrej thinks this way is best. Others make arguments for why multiple sensors and fusion makes more sense. No one knows the correct answer, it will be played out in the future. Maybe what some people care about is cheaper cars. That is not what the podcast was about, that is not how the Lidar + stereo camera vs. stereo-camera only decision was made. And in terms of the advancement of human civilization it is not interesting to me whether Tesla has good or bad quarterly results compared to what is the best way to solve the engineering problems & the advancement of AI, etc. I don't really care very much but it is slightly offensive when many people just dismiss engineers who are putting in tons of effort to legitimately solve complicated problems as if they are just scam artists trying to lie to make quick money. That is also a stupid argument. No company is going to invest billions(?) of dollars and tons of engineering hours into an idea they secretly know is inferior and will eventually lose out because they can have a good quarter. That is not a serious argument.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#273

Post by freejazz » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:34 AM UTC

xodjmk wrote: post #272

freejazz wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lidar vs. Stereo camera vs. multiple cameras vs. ultrasound is a separate problem that engineers are trying to solve, not how can we sell cheaper fucking mops." Okay? Tesla is a car company and they are absolutely trying to sell a cheaper car. That's obvious to anyone that's been in one. "Both methods have trade-offs." Right, isn't that why most other systems use both?

Both methods have trade-offs as in there are positive and negative merits for both approaches. Using both systems requires the sensor data to be fused together to make real-time decisions. This is the whole point, why people are trivializing this problem, and why it is easy to believe that they are just trying to scam people by going cheap on using multiple sensors. If you want to argue that it is better to use Lidar…

I'm not sure why you'd assume all of that. You keep saying engineers, but it's a business decision. Seems like you are getting caught up in marketing.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#274

Post by sangnoir » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:38 AM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #252

RC_ITR wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, yes, cars that are programmed to have AEB: perform well at AEB and not other tasks. We are in agreement here. (I even agree with you that those cars use Radar for AEB). Now, where we disagree is you implying that cars with AEB-level radar (literally $10 off-the-shelf parts with whatever sensor fusion some MobilEye intern dreams ups) are somehow the same as self-driving cars (the goal of Tesla Autopilot). Every se…

But if the radar just sees a static object and can't tell if it's an overhead sign or a car, and the camera vision is too washed out, how would sensor fusion help in your example?

Perhaps stop cheaping out on the cameras and procure those with high dynamic range. Then again those may be "expensive and complicate the supply chain with for a small delta"

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#275

Post by freejazz » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:39 AM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #257

RC_ITR wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, yes, cars that are programmed to have AEB: perform well at AEB and not other tasks. We are in agreement here. (I even agree with you that those cars use Radar for AEB). Now, where we disagree is you implying that cars with AEB-level radar (literally $10 off-the-shelf parts with whatever sensor fusion some MobilEye intern dreams ups) are somehow the same as self-driving cars (the goal of Tesla Autopilot). Every se…

> ”There is no one sensor that will do it. Full stop.” Yet somehow, humans can drive cars with just a pair of optical sensors (mounted on a swivelling gimbal, of sorts). In theory, a sufficiently capable AI should be able to drive a car at least as well as a human can using the same input: vision.

Yes, in theory, something sufficient will suffice. I think we are trying to bring some clarity to the topic, however.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#276

Post by sangnoir » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:42 AM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #257

RC_ITR wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, yes, cars that are programmed to have AEB: perform well at AEB and not other tasks. We are in agreement here. (I even agree with you that those cars use Radar for AEB). Now, where we disagree is you implying that cars with AEB-level radar (literally $10 off-the-shelf parts with whatever sensor fusion some MobilEye intern dreams ups) are somehow the same as self-driving cars (the goal of Tesla Autopilot). Every se…

> ”There is no one sensor that will do it. Full stop.” Yet somehow, humans can drive cars with just a pair of optical sensors (mounted on a swivelling gimbal, of sorts). In theory, a sufficiently capable AI should be able to drive a car at least as well as a human can using the same input: vision.

Isn't this a bit like saying we can do better than fixed-wing aircraft, because birds can flap their wings? With sufficiently advanced material science, flapping-wing human flight too, is possible. But that doesn't mean Boeing and Cessna are misguided.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#277

Post by speedgoose » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:48 AM UTC

lawrenceyan wrote: post #143

I can see a path where with only cameras, Tesla might be able to reach level 4 autonomy in perfect conditions. But the biggest thing that comes to mind is what happens at night. Are they only going to enable self-driving during the day?

Wouldn’t turning on the headlights fix the problem at night?

Snow and ice may be another challenge but night sounds easy.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#278

Post by TulliusCicero » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:52 AM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #257

RC_ITR wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, yes, cars that are programmed to have AEB: perform well at AEB and not other tasks. We are in agreement here. (I even agree with you that those cars use Radar for AEB). Now, where we disagree is you implying that cars with AEB-level radar (literally $10 off-the-shelf parts with whatever sensor fusion some MobilEye intern dreams ups) are somehow the same as self-driving cars (the goal of Tesla Autopilot). Every se…

> ”There is no one sensor that will do it. Full stop.” Yet somehow, humans can drive cars with just a pair of optical sensors (mounted on a swivelling gimbal, of sorts). In theory, a sufficiently capable AI should be able to drive a car at least as well as a human can using the same input: vision.

> Yet somehow, humans can drive cars with just a pair of optical sensors

A pair of optical sensors and a compute engine vastly superior to anything that we will have in the near future for self-driving cars.

Humans can do fine with driving on just a couple of cameras because we have an excellent mental model (at least when not distracted, tired, drunk, etc.). Cars won't have that solid of a mental model for a long, long time, so sensor superiority is a way to compensate for that.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#279

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 5:54 AM UTC

From the first principles point of view, it comes down to radar and ultrasonic having much higher wavelengths than optical. Which results in much lower amount of incoming information, worse resolution and higher interference if many cars radiate the same signals on a busy street.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#280

Post by djleni » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 6:00 AM UTC

nelox wrote: post #235

“The world is designed for human visual consumption” and “[vision] has all the information you need for driving”. While vision may be sufficient, I would say that other senses, such as hearing, touch and smell augment driving very well. Especially with regard to situational awareness. e.g. The sirens of emergency vehicles are typically the first indication of their presence, which often can be felt as well. The wail…

THANK YOU. Reading this thread was getting to me because so many comments say humans drive eyes only.

I use far more than just vision driving:

- sound, for emergency vehicles, detecting vehicles outside of my field of view if my windows are down or the vehicle is loud, tire sound (especially in snow and rain), engine sound (more feedback in snow or ice about what my tires are doing)

- touch (steering feedback, gives information about grip in some circumstances)

- acceleration (can feel if the rear tires break loose in a turn on snow or ice, or if I’m sliding while breaking)

And probably many more