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Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

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Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#51

Post by cassianoleal »

andrenth wrote: post #44
matznerd wrote: post #8

So important for the environment and planet. Bolsonaro would have equaled the death of the Amazon as a rainforest. The Amazon is already close to the tipping point of becoming a savanna and net carbon emitting system. Think this doesn't matter to people in the US? Well, turns out the rain in the Midwest of the United States comes from the Amazon rainforest. The planet is intricately intertwined and we do not truly un…

Bulshit. Deforestation was at record levels during Lula’s first terms. Please don’t normalize the election of a criminal.

Yes, it was. For half of his first term.

That said, this is hardly an argument against Lula's effectiveness at cutting down deforestation, and even less an argument for Bolsonaro.

It took Lula the first half of his first term to effectively cut the trend that had started between 1997 and 1998.

For the rest of his time in office, there was a sharp and sustained drop. Numbers put it at roughly a 70% drop. That trend continued if slowed down a little during Dilma's first term.

After that we had Dilma's second term in very tough circumstances, the unlawful imprisonment of Lula, an impeachment that was deemed a coup by many, followed by 2 years with what was an interim President at best and a tyrant at worst, and Bolsonaro's ascension afterwards.

During Bolsonaro's term there was a sustained increase in deforestation. [0]

In 2018, it was just short of 8000km2. During Bolsonaros's first 3 years, it went up to ~10500km2, ~11000km2 and finally ~13000km2. By early June this year, it had already surpassed last year's numbers [1].

For reference, Lula was in office from 2003 to 2010.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/ws/includes/idt2/5630ed76-05f4-457f-b6a1...

[1] https://amazonia.org.br/desmatamento-acumulado-em-2022-na-am...

Edit: originally I had written that by early July this year's figures had already surpassed last year's. That's not technically wrong, but it actually happened a month earlier than that, in early June.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#52

Post by NoThisIsMe »

andrenth wrote: post #45
NoThisIsMe wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop equating populism with fascism? Populism can be good, actually. Lula is arguably a populist.

Lula is a populist and a fascist. His campaign ran on a platform of “regulating the media” and has succeeded in censoring a major news channel and the release of a documentary film about the attempt to murder the president in the previous election.

Even if all that is true (I have my doubts) that wouldn't make Lula a fascist.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#53

Post by cassianoleal »

andrenth wrote: post #45
NoThisIsMe wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we stop equating populism with fascism? Populism can be good, actually. Lula is arguably a populist.

Lula is a populist and a fascist. His campaign ran on a platform of “regulating the media” and has succeeded in censoring a major news channel and the release of a documentary film about the attempt to murder the president in the previous election.

I can understand (if disagree with) your view of Lula as a populist.

Why do you call him a fascist though?

> His campaign ran on a platform of “regulating the media”

It didn't, but in any case the media is regulated. Everything that's being argued in this regard is about breaking trusts and monopolies in the media.

Trusts and monopolies are widely regarded as counter to working democracies, and free markets. Seeing liberal right-wingers fight against it is at least somewhat ironic.

> succeeded in censoring a major news channel and the release of a documentary film about the attempt to murder the president in the previous election.

Could you please post references to this?

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#54

Post by NoThisIsMe »

gautamcgoel wrote: post #48

It's interesting reading these comments. Many commenters (who I assume are mostly from North America and Europe) are relieved that Lula won and seem to view Bolsonaro as a repulsive authoritarian. This view is the view that is implicitly espoused by all mainstream Western media outlets, such as the New York Times and the Guardian. However, some commenters seem to view Lula as a corrupt politician, essentially nothing…

I mean every NYT and washpo piece I've read about this election has at the very least touched on, often dwelled on, the Lula is a crook bit. What they rarely mention is the judge was buddy buddy with Bolsonero and collaborated with the prosecution behind the scenes.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#55

Post by Georgelemental »

gtirloni wrote: post #34
Dma54rhs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Definitely not when it comes to voting. Before Trump the idea of voting machine fraud and the impossible task to be certain of integrity of the elections was fairly non conspiratorial idea. I've never seen voting machines but I remember reading constantly about US southern states using them and the suspicions. As I said many democratic nations have banned them.

Just show evidence the electronic voting was rigged in Brazil and we can all move on.

Even if there is 0 rigging or fraud whatsoever, the mere possibility that there could have been such hurts trust in the democratic process.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#56

Post by andrenth »

cassianoleal wrote: post #51
andrenth wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bulshit. Deforestation was at record levels during Lula’s first terms. Please don’t normalize the election of a criminal.

Yes, it was. For half of his first term. That said, this is hardly an argument against Lula's effectiveness at cutting down deforestation, and even less an argument for Bolsonaro. It took Lula the first half of his first term to effectively cut the trend that had started between 1997 and 1998. For the rest of his time in office, there was a sharp and sustained drop. Numbers put it at roughly a 70% drop. That trend co…

> After that we had Dilma's second term in very tough circumstances, the unlawful imprisonment of Lula, an impeachment that was deemed a coup by many, followed by 2 years with what was an interim President at best and a tyrant at worst, and Bolsonaro's ascension afterwards.

This whole paragraph is partisan bullshit. I’m not interested in further interactions. Enjoy the win of your pet criminal and have a good night.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#57

Post by andrenth »

cassianoleal wrote: post #53
andrenth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lula is a populist and a fascist. His campaign ran on a platform of “regulating the media” and has succeeded in censoring a major news channel and the release of a documentary film about the attempt to murder the president in the previous election.

I can understand (if disagree with) your view of Lula as a populist. Why do you call him a fascist though? > His campaign ran on a platform of “regulating the media” It didn't, but in any case the media is regulated. Everything that's being argued in this regard is about breaking trusts and monopolies in the media. Trusts and monopolies are widely regarded as counter to working democracies, and free markets. Seeing l…

https://jovempan.com.br/noticias/brasil/jovem-pan-sob-censur...

https://revistaoeste.com/politica/eleicoes-2022/tse-censura-...

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#58

Post by cassianoleal »

shimonabi wrote: post #20

If I was Brazilian I would never support Bolsanaro, but he was right about the electronic voting machines. It is shocking to me that there is not a paper record for each cast vote in Brazil.

How is that different from paper polls? Once you deposit the ballot you don't keep any record of your vote.

One of the reasons for the vote being secret and not leaving the ballot is to avoid people being coerced to vote for any particular candidate.

In Brazil we have the concept of electoral corrals. This is a known and wide practice, although it was much worse in the past. Electoral courts and processes have been fighting this since the early days of Brazilian democracy.

In a nutshell, this is when someone who holds a certain amount of power over many individuals (an employer, a farmer, a community leader, a church pastor, etc) exercises this power in order to coerce people into voting for their favoured candidate even if it goes against the individual's best interests and preference.

They would make people prove that they voted for candidate A, or get fired, expelled from the community, perhaps even fear for their or their family's lives.

These practices still happen and have increased massively this year compared to previous elections, but they're still lower than they used to be.

If people left the ballot with proof of whom they voted for, it would be much easier to coerce them.

With a secret vote being enforced the way it is, individuals still have the choice to agree with their superiors but cast whatever vote they want.

It's not perfect. Like I mentioned, the problem still exists, but it's reduced.

Like other commenters have already said though, the ballots are auditable (and audited).

I would rather our systems and processes keep improving rather than going back to worse ways just because what we have now is not perfect.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#59

Post by andrenth »

NoThisIsMe wrote: post #52
andrenth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lula is a populist and a fascist. His campaign ran on a platform of “regulating the media” and has succeeded in censoring a major news channel and the release of a documentary film about the attempt to murder the president in the previous election.

Even if all that is true (I have my doubts) that wouldn't make Lula a fascist.

https://www-cnnbrasil-com-br.translate.goog/politica/interes...

Lula’s party has a history of totalitarian tendencies and of siding with dictatorships (Cuba, Venezuela, Libya, Angola, etc) and a well known desire to control the media (of course, they call it “democratizing the media”).

If dictatorships, totalitarianism and state-sponsored censorship are not fascist, I don’t know what is.

Re: Lula defeats Bolsonaro to again become Brazil’s president

#60

Post by cassianoleal »

andrenth wrote: post #56
cassianoleal wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it was. For half of his first term. That said, this is hardly an argument against Lula's effectiveness at cutting down deforestation, and even less an argument for Bolsonaro. It took Lula the first half of his first term to effectively cut the trend that had started between 1997 and 1998. For the rest of his time in office, there was a sharp and sustained drop. Numbers put it at roughly a 70% drop. That trend co…

> After that we had Dilma's second term in very tough circumstances, the unlawful imprisonment of Lula, an impeachment that was deemed a coup by many, followed by 2 years with what was an interim President at best and a tyrant at worst, and Bolsonaro's ascension afterwards. This whole paragraph is partisan bullshit. I’m not interested in further interactions. Enjoy the win of your pet criminal and have a good night.

Thanks for helping make my argument by focusing yours on 2-4 out of 16 years, or 20 if we add in the last 4 where there was a clear and sustained increase in deforestation.

I don't have any pets (unfortunately - I love dogs but I live in a carpeted flat), but if I did I'm pretty certain they wouldn't be criminals.

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