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Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

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Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crash you referenced occurred in 2016 when they were using radar on the cars and I don't believe they were yet using raw photon counts nor did the NN have any voxel-based memory as it does now.

> any voxel-based memory Haha, any WHAT? Seriously though do you have any more info on that, it sounds intriguing. Where and how do voxels come into play in a 2D NN?

It is pretty cool: https://youtu.be/ODSJsviD_SU?t=4355

They transitioned from 2D to 3D a couple years ago, major transition but it does seem like a critical step. We live in a 3d rather than 2d world.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That video is from 2020, but Tesla didn't remove radar until 2021. Meaning that the crash occurred with radar still active, which I feel just backs up what Karpathy was saying.

Well, the car may have had radar hardware but there are questions as to whether the software was using it: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/05/business/tesla-autopilot-... Excerpt: Mr. Rajkumar of Carnegie Mellon, who reviewed the video and data at the request of The Times, said Autopilot might have failed to brake for the Explorer because the Tesla’s cameras were facing the sun or were confused by the truck ahead of…

> Autopilot’s camera could not distinguish between the white truck and the bright sky.

Is this a hard limitation to vision systems? Or are they saying in that particular early version it couldn't?

(And yes I understand LIDAR wouldnt be limited by the color and would see the objects)

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#163
post #33

I didn't find his answers particularly convincing. His answer focused on costs mainly, and how "the best part is no part". We have already seen multiple accidents caused by camera's limitations [1] which would not have happened if Tesla used Lidars. Cameras have poor dynamic range and can be easily blinded by bright surfaces. While it is true that humans do fine with only eyes, our eyes are significantly better than…

> While it is true that humans do fine with only eyes We do not. Humans are terrible at driving. Traffic accidents are one of the leading causes of death in the developed world. Billions of dollars of property damage occur every year because humans are not up to the task. A self driving system that is as safe as an average human driver would be an absolute failure.

>We do not.

But not because of a lack of visual information.

Most of the time it's a la k of concentration or an overestimation of one's own driving abilities.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#164
post #33

I didn't find his answers particularly convincing. His answer focused on costs mainly, and how "the best part is no part". We have already seen multiple accidents caused by camera's limitations [1] which would not have happened if Tesla used Lidars. Cameras have poor dynamic range and can be easily blinded by bright surfaces. While it is true that humans do fine with only eyes, our eyes are significantly better than…

The dynamic range is the reason Tesla know counts photons rather than use traditional camera processing. They basically remove the concept of exposure entirely and simply pass the sensor photon counts to the neural net. This approach not only simpler as it removes photo processing/encoding but the result is that the NN can operate with a very high dynamic range similar to the human eye and in many cases can be sensit…

how do you count photons continuously? what... this makes no sense, if you pass "the photon count" you just did a exposure... also how does a photo diode count photons?

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#165

Andrej's argument about more sensors adding entropy strikes me as disingenuous considering that in the next question he then says that Tesla's biggest advantage over everyone else is "the fleet", which clearly introduces orders of magnitude more entropy into the system than anything else. Can you imagine the infrastructure required to gather video from "the fleet" anytime a car sees something unexpected? How about di…

One is infrastructure entropy and the other is software engineering entropy (we're still talking about data from one type of sensor, just at larger scale).

Most tech startups have 10x+ more problems with the engineering part than the infrastructure/ops part.

Also this is one person's perspective from a large team. His answer might be biased because he's an engineer and I doubt his was the only voice in the debate.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have some experience with LiDAR, they fail easily if a water droplet is on the cover or if signs are too bright. It’s a whole different technology challenge.

Why is LiDAR still expensive enough for the cost to be a problem for anyone? Why have large numbers not driven these down to commodity devices at this point? Or maybe similar tech at another frequency like spread spectrum microwave with phased array semiconductor antennae?

> Why is LiDAR still expensive enough for the cost to be a problem for anyone?

Because economy of scale is not the only reason things are expensive. Lidar with 2cm distance resolution has to detect light and measure time to less than 60 picoseconds. It requires sophisticated, expensive sensors like avalanche diodes and complex and extremely fast circuitry.

Consider what a single pixel of a lidar device is doing. It's operating 8 orders of magnitude faster than a normal camera pixel. It's detecting an incredibly small amount of light; the spot of a weak laser on a questionable surface from tens of meters away. Its doing that in the presence of light that is tens or hundreds of thousands of times more powerful than the reflection it's actually looking for. Much of that reflection is even at the same wavelength of the laser!

Even the mechanics of the device are critical. Pixels are gathered sequentially, unlike in a camera, so any vibration makes the data uselessly fuzzy. Vibration in a camera is correlated extremely tightly between millions of pixels. In lidar its correlated with dozens to hundreds. Any high frequency vibration has large negative impacts on the data.

> Or maybe similar tech at another frequency like spread spectrum microwave with phased array semiconductor antennae?

...that's just radar. Literally. Microwaves are 300 Mhz to 300 GHz. Automotive radar is like, 80 GHz, +/=5 GHz (mostly). It uses phased arrays. It uses highly integrated devices. They don't use semiconductor antennas, because the area on a silicon die is far, far to valuable to use for an antenna, but the antennas are incredibly cheap. Radar and lidar are just pretty different.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#167

This whole question about the vision boils down to "humans don't need it so cars should not need it too" the problem with this statement is that humans does not have wheels to move around, they have legs, but wheels are ridiculously simple compared to 4 legs tapping 160km/h on a highway. Same for birds - they also does not need jet engines to fly around, but imagine Airbus A380 flapping its wings and what kind of com…

No, he precisely said that the difference Lidar made was tested, and the delta (difference made) was quite small; not enough to outweigh the downsides. Elon has noted that humans do well, and that's relevant, but that observation was also tested, re lidar.

>and the delta (difference made) was quite small

But why. Because LIDAR doesn't help much in general or because the Tesla engineers aren't good at using the sensor data?

Same with the manufacturing.

Sounds to me like Tesla can't handle complexity. And if they can't handle the complexity of manufacturing, they surely can't handle the complexity of full autonomous driving.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#168
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI cars can also get a software update at any moment. Human drivers won't change behavior en masse overnight.

You’re right, but that still misses the point. More frequently updated software doesn’t make people intuitively trust it more. For some, it can do the opposite by making them question why it needs to be updated so much to begin with. Humans don’t generally measure risks statistically. They do so emotionally and with lots of cognitive biases. You don’t alleviate that with more and more facts, unfortunately.

Sorry if I was unclear. Software is more unpredictable in my view, both because of fleet updates and it being so fundamentally different than humans. (On the whole, I realize AI and ML could work similar to some human processes.)

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#169

This whole question about the vision boils down to "humans don't need it so cars should not need it too" the problem with this statement is that humans does not have wheels to move around, they have legs, but wheels are ridiculously simple compared to 4 legs tapping 160km/h on a highway. Same for birds - they also does not need jet engines to fly around, but imagine Airbus A380 flapping its wings and what kind of com…

> This whole question about the vision boils down to

Is that really what the problem boils down to? Or how it was decided? Or are you just questioning a common meme that comes up in internet debates about car AI?

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