Ask HN: Advice that changed your life? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#531

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 6:37 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #489

borroka wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't care what others think" always sounds like a coping mechanism, a last resort, an out-of-balance response to past insecurities and people-pleasing, as evidenced in this comment by dated references to designer clothes and fancy cars. If I have a boss, shouldn't I worry about what they think of me? If I have a spouse, a partner, a child, shouldn't I worry about what they think of me? Now, I know, the usual clar…

> as evidenced in this comment by dated references to designer clothes and fancy cars. I think you ought to reevaluate your ability to read people from such limited comments and remarks. It’s not as honed as you might think, as evidenced by this comment. I do not care what other people think about me. I can not control what others think, nor can I ever know it. Instead, I care about the things I can control: how I be…

I'm having trouble seeing where the two of you actually disagree. You're both arguing for a middle approach, what the Greeks would call "moderation"; neither of you care about every detail about what others think, but both of you do track their possible responses in order to fit in at least some of the time in "low cost" situations. Both of you go your own way when the stakes seem higher to you. I think it's more the word-tags you tend to prefer when describing boors that divides you, which is to say, semantics (of a kind.)

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#532

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #266

nkrisc wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not caring what others think doesn’t mean you can’t “fit in.” Of course it sure doesn’t sound like that’s what she meant, but it’s still solid advice, I think. I do lots of things that basically boil down to “social lubricant.” I really don’t care what most other people think, but I still “play nice” when it’s low-cost and easy because makes everything easier. I won’t go out of my way or expend too much effort to ple…

It was also advice to Feynman from his wife, “What do you care what other people think?” :-)

I always interpret the word "think" in the phrase "Why do you care what other people think?” to mean "Feel free to ignore others' conclusions", and never "Feel free to ignore others' knowledge or data." By all means find out why others think X (if you think there is a reason they are capable of enunciating, and that they might be conscious of it, which is not nec the common case.)

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#533

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 6:45 PM UTC

maegul wrote: post #268

javajosh wrote: post #124

My mother told me to not care what other people thought. She also told me that words can't really hurt people ("sticks and stones..."). She also believed its "mean" to have any preference about people, calling it a version of "keeping score". In fact, "keeping score" was one of the worst things you could be accused of in my household. Her advice fails to accept the reality of social and emotional needs. It also fails…

> Advice is dangerous. It has built in moral hazard. Advice is too often given in well-meaning ignorance and pride - but ultimately advice gets someone else to test your hypothesis for you. I've become somewhat convinced of "it takes a village to raise a child" thinking on the back of similar observations. It seems to me that it's a horrible thing to do to a child to force them to learn and absorb from only one to tw…

Marx would be proud of you, alienation from village, extended family etc was a very specific, central concern for him when looking at how capitalism had changed life in his time. He wasn't the only one to recognize this change or be appalled by it, of course.

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#534

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #332

chiefalchemist wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to nitpick, but the words have no value. The value comes from what you or me assign to them. Certainly there are things in your past (or mine) that we heard and effectively ignored. But if heard again we'd laugh or cry. The point is, the meaning we attach to the words are literally in our heads. We determine the worlds they create. It's not the other way around.

Your comment is very vague. Words cause an involuntary reaction that cannot be turned off. You cannot stop understanding English at will. You cannot stop being hurt if you're rejected at will. In that sense the statement "words don't hurt" is simply false, and contradicts the direct lived experience of every human on earth (except those who train to not let words get to them, such as lawyers and politicians).

But over decades, almost every human being has far more moderated "involuntary responses" to words. Life trains us that most of the time its better to just move on, and choose our company more carefully, if nothing else.

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#535

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #526

solardev wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I disagree with you, but what does "keeping score" actually mean? I don't understand how it's related to being mean or having "preferences" about people...

"Keeping score" was primarily a charge used by my mother against people who questioned her or charged her with wrong-doing. She used it to avoid responsibility and put the focus on the victim. This mixed with her brand of extreme egalitarianism into a general dictum "it is wrong to dislike people". This is very poor advice. It's not wrong to dislike people! If you believe it is, then other people are wrong to dislike…

I've seen a few psychopathic parents and aduts in action and this fits the pattern awfully well. There are books out there for children of narcissists and psycopaths, might be worth a look. It's tough starting the race to full adulthood when others begin that race far out ahead of you due to a more appropriate upbringing.

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#536

Post by chiefalchemist » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

annyeonghada wrote: post #247

chiefalchemist wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to nitpick, but the words have no value. The value comes from what you or me assign to them. Certainly there are things in your past (or mine) that we heard and effectively ignored. But if heard again we'd laugh or cry. The point is, the meaning we attach to the words are literally in our heads. We determine the worlds they create. It's not the other way around.

Completely disagree. The "heaviness" of an insult is determined by various factors: how much you value the person holding that opinion, how much you want to be accepted, how many rejections you got through... We are not robots that can automatically choose to not care: in the past I was in the stoic camp, red Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca and so on but now I recognize that that philosophy brought me lots of pain…

> We are not robots that can automatically choose to not care:

We are not robots. We are human. And while we cannot be automated, we survived due to our ability to adapt. Where we channel your attention, what we choose to focus on, and what we choose to value *is* something we have control over.

The idea that someone saying something to me and those words control me, my mind, and my world...that's silly.

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#537

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

club_tropical wrote: post #445

edw519 wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I am very surprised you think some of these held up: pos mental attitude, writing things down, value of mba, and - most especially - almost anyone can do anything. OK then please allow me to give you a recent example of ALL 4 OF THESE that made my (Fortune 50) employer hundreds of millions of dollars in real profits... I built specialized supply chain software that did what nothing else (including SAP and…

Appreciate the example. We remain drawing different conclusions from it, but this further explanation will benefit many readers, so thank you.

Thank you for your politesse. Human language is a crude tool. There are always tradeoffs with the words we choose. "Anyone can do Anything" is a good mnemonic (the alliteration really helps) which takes away any excuses (not a bad thing, in my case.) Still, it does sacrifice literal truth. There are no four-year-olds in the NFL, for example.

"If you think you can't do something, you can't." Is another way I've heard the same thought expressed. Maybe even more semantically respectable would be "Almost everyone who decides they can't do something, is wrong."

The native american expression is one I like a lot: "If you don't know how to do something, that's because you don't want it enough."

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#538

Post by Tade0 » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 7:13 PM UTC

mrj wrote: post #382

Tade0 wrote: post #172

My operating systems professor liked to engage his audience during lectures, so it was commonly more of a dialogue than a lecture. At one point he gave us some problem to consider, we didn't know what to make of it, so we started asking how to approach this. His reply: "You're asking me? Soon enough you'll be engineers. You're the experts people will come to for solutions." More of a reminder than advice, but it affe…

"Never explain yourself unless explicitly asked to." Hm, I wonder what context you use this in? My experience has been different, that succinctly telling people about your motivations and thoughts, and truly being vulnerable, is an important part of forming relationships and preventing misunderstandings. And everything is relationships. I've worked really hard to figure out how to be clearer with everybody in my life…

My experience is that people treat it as making excuses and don't respond to this well.

Perhaps it's a cultural thing.

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#539

Post by club_tropical » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

Nomentatus wrote: post #537

club_tropical wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate the example. We remain drawing different conclusions from it, but this further explanation will benefit many readers, so thank you.

Thank you for your politesse. Human language is a crude tool. There are always tradeoffs with the words we choose. "Anyone can do Anything" is a good mnemonic (the alliteration really helps) which takes away any excuses (not a bad thing, in my case.) Still, it does sacrifice literal truth. There are no four-year-olds in the NFL, for example. "If you think you can't do something, you can't." Is another way I've heard…

This still assumes a level of human equality that is belied in reality. Most people that are living good and healthy lives do not do so as a result of basic aptitude + wanting + grinding (1) it out. They are more like a particular type of seed that moved about different soils until it found one it could flourish in. Anyone can do anything-ism implies that a watermelon seed can flourish in a rice field if it “wants enough”.

(1) grinding is a particular type of experience that deserves explanation. It is not merely working at something- it is the subjective personal experience of the work. I can code for an hour and be psychologically rejuvenated by it and my cousin could feel like she was in a prison for months. You will never grind your way to a satisfactory life; grinding is a symptom that you need to change the “soil” and that the “want” you have was memed into you and is unsuitable for you.

Re: Ask HN: Advice that changed your life?

#540

Post by Nomentatus » Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 7:55 PM UTC

club_tropical wrote: post #539

Nomentatus wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your politesse. Human language is a crude tool. There are always tradeoffs with the words we choose. "Anyone can do Anything" is a good mnemonic (the alliteration really helps) which takes away any excuses (not a bad thing, in my case.) Still, it does sacrifice literal truth. There are no four-year-olds in the NFL, for example. "If you think you can't do something, you can't." Is another way I've heard…

This still assumes a level of human equality that is belied in reality. Most people that are living good and healthy lives do not do so as a result of basic aptitude + wanting + grinding (1) it out. They are more like a particular type of seed that moved about different soils until it found one it could flourish in. Anyone can do anything-ism implies that a watermelon seed can flourish in a rice field if it “wants en…

I"m over 65, I don't think you'll ever get to a truly satisfactory life without some grinding at self-introspection. Meditation is nothing if not a very deliberate grind. You can grind badly and not get a result from meditation, but you can't get a good result from meditation without grinding. A lot.

Otherwise, I think we are agreeing, neither I nor the guy I'm in effect defending think that soils (privilege, fer instance) don't matter, or that humans aren't unequal. Four-year-old blocking not equal to 24-year-old blocking. I think I covered that. There are sometimes advantages in not being fully literal, which is lucky because language cannot but be vague (it's just a matter of degree.) Hence the tradeoffs, impressing the message firmly matters because the temptation to give ourselves excuses is difficult to fully elide.