Six or seven years ago, I happened to get caught up in an extremely tight Halloween crowd in Tokyo. I had finished work around seven p.m., and I decided to walk home through Shibuya to check out the people and costumes. (I'm in my sixties now, and I haven't done Halloween myself since childhood.) The crowds started getting thick as I started down the narrow Center-gai street heading toward the station. Maybe half the…
Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
31–37 of 37 posts
Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is probably not the right reaction (and may well be unpopular), but it makes me angry. I know no one is trying to kill anyone, but it feels like people disregarding others' safety just to get a little bit closer to some amusement. Ideally people would just relax and accept that there isn't room for them nearer the stage/etc. > everyone turn around, people are being killed I wonder if this would worsen the danger…
You imagine people pushing others hard. But the reality is crushing can also be caused by thousands of people pushing gently. For example if there is a line of 1000 people, with person to person contact, and there is something nice in one direction (eg. The exit to a concert), or nasty in the other direction (encroaching fire or flood), then merely pushing with 1 lb of force means by the end of the line you have 1000…
1. passively propagate forward whatever force is being applied to them from behind
2. actively resist by applying some amount of counterforce (this doesn't mean the person in front of them experiences 0 force, but only that the force they experience is less)
3. actively add one's own force in addition to whatever force they are experiencing from behind
I'm positing that (3) is selfish even at low forces, even if you're near the back of the line, and your scenario of 1k people doing (3) with an individual contribution of 1lb of force describes 1k wrecklessly selfish people.
The moral I'm proposing--and it's a really fucking easy one--is don't fucking push people, even gently.
Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is probably not the right reaction (and may well be unpopular), but it makes me angry. I know no one is trying to kill anyone, but it feels like people disregarding others' safety just to get a little bit closer to some amusement. Ideally people would just relax and accept that there isn't room for them nearer the stage/etc. > everyone turn around, people are being killed I wonder if this would worsen the danger…
These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting…
> In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement.
I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get closer to an amusement (although that's probably true as well in some sense), I claimed that they are disregarding others' safety, which is actually probably too weak a phrasing since it suggests passivity rather than the fact of the matter: people who push (even gently) to get closer to some stage/etc actively and lethally endanger others for the sole purpose of being closer to an amusement.
Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting…
I'm arguing that it's selfish to push people, and this argument doesn't imply that I'm opposed to proper crowd control. I also think people shouldn't drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to traffic control measures or mechanisms. > In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get clo…
You are either ignorant, or victim blaming. Go read wikipedia about crowd collapse.
Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
These events tend to happen because people are escaping a crush in both directions. I'm sure everyone in the crowd was aware that it was getting dangerous. And everyone just tried to get out and encountered other people facing the same issue, coming the other way. The cause is lack of proper crowd management because if you view the cause as just "humans are fundamentally flawed", then you are basically just accepting…
I'm arguing that it's selfish to push people, and this argument doesn't imply that I'm opposed to proper crowd control. I also think people shouldn't drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to traffic control measures or mechanisms. > In other words, just think it through? Nobody is endangering their own life to get closer to an amusement. I didn't claim people were endangering their own lives to get clo…
Completely false. The reason people don't die at a concert is because the organisers control the crowd density. The density is high, but not so high that death is all but inevitable (as was the density in Itaewon on saturday, which can be confirmed from photographic evidence of the scene).
They have crowd barriers and security staff and it's well lit, so they can see if anyone is struggling and help them over. Even if the crowd density is relatively safe, localised disturbance (eg. someone tripping over, losing a shoe) etc can cause a dangerous situation. So even when the density is at a level considered "risky but safe", you need vigilant security staff and a space to overflow people to (space created by crowd barriers.)
If the density is too high, or the measures to protect people are insufficient. It is the fault of the organisers, and that is manslaughter.
This is just called "risk management", you tolerate some level of risk, so that people can do the activities that they enjoy, while allowing them to have the reasonable expectation that they won't die.
Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can assure you that crowds in Itaewon are not not monocultural (although on Halloween it is a bit, because it's one of the rare occasions Koreans will go there in large numbers). I can also confirm that South Korea does indeed, have plenty of morons. But perhaps I'm missing the point and this is the sub-thread for racist tropes/talking points. Why can't all minorities be more like Asians?
Parent comment is an internet classic, when there's only a surface level, stereotypical understanding of a foreign culture, and the assumption that's all there is to it. Bonus points when the perceived population homogeneity is used as a reason why universal healthcare works "over there" but couldn't possibly work here. It's ignorant and racist as soon as it's given even a cursory examination.
It's literally how our previous mayor went out, and he didn't even manslaughter 153 people.
Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities
#37Six or seven years ago, I happened to get caught up in an extremely tight Halloween crowd in Tokyo. I had finished work around seven p.m., and I decided to walk home through Shibuya to check out the people and costumes. (I'm in my sixties now, and I haven't done Halloween myself since childhood.) The crowds started getting thick as I started down the narrow Center-gai street heading toward the station. Maybe half the…