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Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

scotthyoung.com

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Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#41

Post by kzrdude »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #24
lloeki wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my experience. I'm learning to sing, my spouse is a pro singer, she told me "pick a song, preferably one you don't know well so as not to be biased, sing it a thousand ways over and over, try it right, try it wrong, try whacky stuff, try nonsense stuff, talk it, rap it, twist it, warp it around, then do it all over again a thousand times, and finally, sing it your way."

> my spouse is a pro singer This is off topic, but... Six years ago I caught a cold that affected my throat. After four days, I recovered from every symptom except the phlegm in my throat, which has persisted continuously from then to now. It catches my voice and blocks me from singing normally. (And, unless I cough regularly, it builds up over time to the point that my airway can become severely restricted.) This se…

Have you tried any medical therapies for this?

I found one mildly locally active antibacterial throat pill that was the only thing that would remove some persistent phlegm like that. I'm not even sure if it was a cure, or just a remedy.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#42

Post by kzrdude »

bitwize wrote: post #33
gre wrote: post #8

A common tactic in practicing music is to play a passage slowed down, sped up, with varying rhythms, up/down an octave, etc, with the idea that if you have complete mastery you can also play it the way it's written.

When I took kung fu I was told "Do it slow, do it fast, do it normal." Slow and normal helped you refine your technique; fast helped you commit the technique to muscle memory so you don't overthink it. Training for speed also adds power.

We know "practice makes habit". So it's important to not flub it by doing it too fast in practice, then we form bad habits.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#43

Post by misterpurple45 »

_tom_ wrote: post #22
tsumnia wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually disagree and my current research in CS Education is attempting to incorporate sport pedagogy into the learning process! I do plan to read through your link more thoroughly later tonight so thanks for that. In a nutshell, we knock that CS1 courses have a high number of drop/fail/withdrawals due to several different factors. These include course difficulty, time management skills, and not feeling welcomed…

> specifically focusing on lower-level "build blocks" practice This has been my experience with teaching math and CS. The biggest causes of failure is not identifying and teaching prerequisite skills. The key point is prerequisite. Many times the skills needed to pass a math or CS class are not part of that class's curriculum. Students who have encountered the building blocks already tend to do well, students who hav…

This is my experience as an adult studying calculus, linear algebra, dynamic programming etc.

Calculus is mostly algebra. If you can’t reliably solve algebraic equations, derivatives and integrals will probably be a step too far.

Algebra is mostly arithmetic. If you can’t reliably add and multiply rational numbers, solving for unknowns is going to be patchy at best.

The key part as a student is learning to recognise when I needed to re-tread the primitive operations. Having to go back and practice the mental arithmetic I first learned in primary school was a hit to the ego, but at least I could recognise and take that step. When I was in my late teens / early 20s I was much less able to swallow my pride and back-track.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#44

Post by tetha »

gre wrote: post #8

A common tactic in practicing music is to play a passage slowed down, sped up, with varying rhythms, up/down an octave, etc, with the idea that if you have complete mastery you can also play it the way it's written.

I was about to bring an example from my own musical journey as well. Picking up a second instrument (from an E-Bass to an E-Guitar) has made learning music theory easier and more interesting. It's all the same, but you're looking at it and use it from different angles with different instruments.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#46

Post by tgv »

noelwelsh wrote: post #5

Hmmm ... I'm a fan of differential learning and other techniques for variablity of practice. Was just reading through https://perceptionaction.com/vp/ earlier today. However I'm not convinced motor learning research transfers to all learning, which seems to be the basis for the claim made in the blog post. My own experience is motor learning is quite different to learning symbol manipulation tasks like maths and prog…

Of course they differ. If they didn't, the best athletes and musicians would also be the best physicists, writers, and politicians. Planning skills may overlap, and possibly transfer, though.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#47

Post by tgv »

tsumnia wrote: post #13
noelwelsh wrote: post #5

Hmmm ... I'm a fan of differential learning and other techniques for variablity of practice. Was just reading through https://perceptionaction.com/vp/ earlier today. However I'm not convinced motor learning research transfers to all learning, which seems to be the basis for the claim made in the blog post. My own experience is motor learning is quite different to learning symbol manipulation tasks like maths and prog…

I'd actually disagree and my current research in CS Education is attempting to incorporate sport pedagogy into the learning process! I do plan to read through your link more thoroughly later tonight so thanks for that. In a nutshell, we knock that CS1 courses have a high number of drop/fail/withdrawals due to several different factors. These include course difficulty, time management skills, and not feeling welcomed…

That doesn't make sense. There always is some overlap between tasks somewhere, but learning to program is generalization, and learning martial arts is motor control. There's no reason for them to be connected. That words like "active" can be applied to both, doesn't mean much. Should you find that your method works better than an existing method, that doesn't mean the metaphor for your method has any basis in reality.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#48

Post by pessimizer »

tsumnia wrote: post #10
maksimur wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spaced repetition and incremental reading don't have to be a conscious effort or implemented with flashcard systems, in fact it might be better not to, depending on your goals. After extensive practice with such systems (talking years between physical flaschards, supermemo and anki), I found it leads to shallow understanding and bad linking between knowledge bits, even though I make sure I understand before committin…

> After extensive practice with such systems (talking years between physical flaschards, supermemo and anki), I found it leads to shallow understanding and bad linking between knowledge bits The issue with flashcard style practice is that it doesn't offer much in "application"-learning, which may help explain the shallow understanding. Spaced repetition needs to be repetition of applying the concept, not reviewing it…

I think that's less an issue with spaced repetition than something it doesn't cover. Spaced repetition helps you practice recalling facts (which are really just connections/associations), it isn't practice in doing the thing the facts are about. It certainly makes practicing doing the thing the facts are about easier, though, because you're not constantly having to context switch between doing the thing and looking up facts.

I've just started to think of spaced repetition as "personalized daily quizzes" to sort of partially dismantle the mystique built up around the process. Less the self-programming method it's usually written about as than a scheduler, one that gently reminds me "do you still remember that thing you learned? If not, this is what it was."

> create "a-ha" moments of insight.

This happens all the time with spaced repetition, and when it happens, I can make another card. People who do spaced repetition are intentionally trying to trick themselves into doing this when we mix up cards of completely unrelated subjects and do them at the same time. Switching from system to system constantly is supposed to make you see accidental parallels and find lucky insights. That's not strictly spaced repetition as such, but it's something that people have added to it, which shows they're aware.

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#49

Post by tsumnia »

tgv wrote: post #47
tsumnia wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually disagree and my current research in CS Education is attempting to incorporate sport pedagogy into the learning process! I do plan to read through your link more thoroughly later tonight so thanks for that. In a nutshell, we knock that CS1 courses have a high number of drop/fail/withdrawals due to several different factors. These include course difficulty, time management skills, and not feeling welcomed…

That doesn't make sense. There always is some overlap between tasks somewhere, but learning to program is generalization, and learning martial arts is motor control. There's no reason for them to be connected. That words like "active" can be applied to both, doesn't mean much. Should you find that your method works better than an existing method, that doesn't mean the metaphor for your method has any basis in reality…

> learning to program is generalization, and learning martial arts is motor control

I disagree; both programming and martial arts require a level of technical motor control. Its easier to define and connect in a physical skill since that is where motor control is studied. However, programming as a technical skill involves familiarity with syntax, familiarity with the tools (literally keyboard and mouse), and translating plans into valid syntax. Likewise, sparring in martial art is as much a problem solving skill as it is in programming - you need to evaluate the problem at hand and do problem decomposition to create subgoals until you produce an actionable item.

> There's no reason for them to be connected

The connection to martial arts works for me because that's something I've done for over a decade. It doesn't immediate click with everyone if they don't have that same history with it. However, many people have seen parallels when I describe this through learning music, dance, chess, or second language acquisition. They recognize the skill was a combination of lower level technical knowledge and higher level problem-solving/creativity. My base thesis is "if you're struggling, why not focus on refining the lower level skill you seem to be having trouble with"?

Re: Variability, not repetition, is the key to mastery

#50

Post by tsumnia »

pessimizer wrote: post #48
tsumnia wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After extensive practice with such systems (talking years between physical flaschards, supermemo and anki), I found it leads to shallow understanding and bad linking between knowledge bits The issue with flashcard style practice is that it doesn't offer much in "application"-learning, which may help explain the shallow understanding. Spaced repetition needs to be repetition of applying the concept, not reviewing it…

I think that's less an issue with spaced repetition than something it doesn't cover. Spaced repetition helps you practice recalling facts (which are really just connections/associations), it isn't practice in doing the thing the facts are about. It certainly makes practicing doing the thing the facts are about easier, though, because you're not constantly having to context switch between doing the thing and looking u…

Oh I'm not dismissing flashcards as not a worthwhile endeavor, quite the opposite. Check out the other comment I made in this thread (or through my profile) on different modes of engagement. If anything, I believe we DON'T do enough of this lower level practice in western education anymore because its not promote critical thinking (as much as other methods). My argument is that if you are struggling in those other methods, you should absolute do these types of lower-level practices.
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