Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities • Hacker News Board

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#11

Post by null0pointer » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 9:12 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #8

Nullabillity wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's why people keep pulling fire alarms for funsies too. Oh, wait...

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. People definitely do keep pulling fire alarms "for funsies", and that's probably a lot easier to prosecute than "who falsely initiated the 'crowd crush' protocol".

It definitely reads as sarcasm to me. It’s easier to prosecute a false fire alarm than a false crowd-crush signal but the cost of a false fire alarm is also far greater.

In a false fire alarm you have the emergency services responding, possibly pulling them away from real emergencies, possibly fire suppression systems engaged adding property damage and cleanup, and everyone evacuating the premises wasting peoples time.

For a crowd-crush protocol I’m imagining something like this. If you see someone being crushed or fallen down and trampled you raise your hand. Possibly with some hand signal like a fist with an extended pinkie finger to disambiguate other reasons to raise a hand (like dancing at a concert for example). If you see someone giving the crowd-crush signal you also give the crowd-crush signal, this way it propagates throughout the crowd. In addition to giving the signal you will also stop moving and stand in place until the issue has resolved. At most a protocol like this would waste a few minutes of peoples time in a false positive.

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#12

Post by Eleison23 » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

I was a victim of crowd crush one summer at an open-air Cure concert. Dinosaur JR was opening, and I was eager to get up-close. I was kind of rattled by frat boys actually bellowing, "kill the weak!" but when the music started I was caught up and crushed up against the stage.

Thankfully there were vigilant security guards to pull me to safety.

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#13

Post by yongjik » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 9:22 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #6

yummypaint wrote: post #4

Crushes like this are especially hearbreaking because they are the result of people at the back of the crowd not knowing those at the front are being asphyxiated. We should teach more about this phenomenon in schools and have a universally understood protocol so crowds can alert themselves to a crush. We could have a code-word or gesture that can be spread quickly person to person and is understood to mean "everyone…

In a monocultural society like South Korea, it's a good idea that probably could work very well and would have saved lives. I'm afraid here in the west it would quickly be abused by morons wanting to amuse themselves at gatherings and quickly be ignored, making it useless.

There were videos of people drinking and dancing right next to a dozen flashing ambulances. I don't think that kind of protocol would work, even in Korea.

(Also most people grossly underestimate this kind of danger - by the time someone in the center realizes they're in trouble, it would be too late.)

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#14

Post by Symbiote » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

willio58 wrote: post #10

I’ve been to a couple music festivals this year and I experienced the crowd at one of the main stages compressing. One thing that’s not talked about as much is the heat caused by surges. If you’re shorter, I could easily see getting cooked alive compressed by bodies unable to gasp for fresh air. I’m much taller than most which helps with getting air but I was shocked to experience how hard it was to get out of the cr…

Where?

Music festivals in Europe (at least 5 countries in familiar with) build barricades to prevent surges at festivals.

This shows there's a barricade part way back from the main stage at Roskilde Festival in Denmark:

https://www.etnow.com/news/2016/3/mojo-barriers-secures-thre...

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#15

Post by tkgally » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

Six or seven years ago, I happened to get caught up in an extremely tight Halloween crowd in Tokyo. I had finished work around seven p.m., and I decided to walk home through Shibuya to check out the people and costumes. (I'm in my sixties now, and I haven't done Halloween myself since childhood.)

The crowds started getting thick as I started down the narrow Center-gai street heading toward the station. Maybe half the people were in costume, and I took pictures of some of the more amusing getups. The mood was cheerful and relaxed, and people were not noticeably drunk. The average age was probably around eighteen.

Before I realized it, the crowd became so tight that it was difficult to move. Our bodies were pressed against each other. People in Tokyo are used to such intense crowding on rush-hour trains, but this was the first time I had ever experienced it on an open street.

Fortunately everyone remained calm and I was able to gradually push my way to the station in about an hour--the walk would normally have taken only five minutes. But I was keenly aware that, through no fault of any individual, the crush could have easily turned into a nightmare.

My condolences to the people in Seoul.

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#16

Post by popcalc » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 9:54 PM UTC

null0pointer wrote: post #11

throwaway894345 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. People definitely do keep pulling fire alarms "for funsies", and that's probably a lot easier to prosecute than "who falsely initiated the 'crowd crush' protocol".

It definitely reads as sarcasm to me. It’s easier to prosecute a false fire alarm than a false crowd-crush signal but the cost of a false fire alarm is also far greater. In a false fire alarm you have the emergency services responding, possibly pulling them away from real emergencies, possibly fire suppression systems engaged adding property damage and cleanup, and everyone evacuating the premises wasting peoples tim…

Never attended a public high school in America?

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#17

Post by null0pointer » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

popcalc wrote: post #16

null0pointer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely reads as sarcasm to me. It’s easier to prosecute a false fire alarm than a false crowd-crush signal but the cost of a false fire alarm is also far greater. In a false fire alarm you have the emergency services responding, possibly pulling them away from real emergencies, possibly fire suppression systems engaged adding property damage and cleanup, and everyone evacuating the premises wasting peoples tim…

Never attended a public high school in America?

Nope.

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#18

Post by willio58 » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 10:46 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #14

willio58 wrote: post #10

I’ve been to a couple music festivals this year and I experienced the crowd at one of the main stages compressing. One thing that’s not talked about as much is the heat caused by surges. If you’re shorter, I could easily see getting cooked alive compressed by bodies unable to gasp for fresh air. I’m much taller than most which helps with getting air but I was shocked to experience how hard it was to get out of the cr…

Where? Music festivals in Europe (at least 5 countries in familiar with) build barricades to prevent surges at festivals. This shows there's a barricade part way back from the main stage at Roskilde Festival in Denmark: https://www.etnow.com/news/2016/3/mojo-barriers-secures-thre...

Outside lands in SF. The rap shows always get the craziest and I will say after reading more about crowd crushing and crowd collapses I’ll be staying further back from now on. Truly one of those situations where I was thinking “huh, interesting I chose to put myself in this situation after hearing about astroworld”.

I think I saw barricades like that at Coachella, definitely a good way to limit this.

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#19

Post by scaramanga » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:34 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #13

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a monocultural society like South Korea, it's a good idea that probably could work very well and would have saved lives. I'm afraid here in the west it would quickly be abused by morons wanting to amuse themselves at gatherings and quickly be ignored, making it useless.

There were videos of people drinking and dancing right next to a dozen flashing ambulances. I don't think that kind of protocol would work, even in Korea. (Also most people grossly underestimate this kind of danger - by the time someone in the center realizes they're in trouble, it would be too late.)

For all they knew, 3 people had alcohol poisoning and 5 more had cuts and bruises from a fight or whatever.

I doubt any animal of any species, if they were aware of their own kind being killed in large numbers nearby, would not shut up and pay close attention for the sake of their own safety if nothing else...

Re: Seoul: At least 146 killed in crowd crush during Halloween festivities

#20

Post by scaramanga » Sat, Oct 29, 2022, 11:40 PM UTC

yummypaint wrote: post #4

Crushes like this are especially hearbreaking because they are the result of people at the back of the crowd not knowing those at the front are being asphyxiated. We should teach more about this phenomenon in schools and have a universally understood protocol so crowds can alert themselves to a crush. We could have a code-word or gesture that can be spread quickly person to person and is understood to mean "everyone…

Yes, very early on people were speculating about drugs, gas leaks, and such. I don't think that is malicious but mostly a lack of understanding about how dangerous crowds can be and what compression asphyxiation is.

The drugs could be squarely ruled out even as the very first reports came out. Even in the most hedonistic parties, you couldn't get 50 people to take timed doses of the same substance and have them stay together in the very same location until poisoning set in for a group of people of vastly different body weights at the same time...

But if you're talking about a collective response, how about you know... regulating and managing large dangerous crowds like this (I was there last year and it was unsafe then, too...). Or regulating the nightclubs (which are all diabolical death traps, too).

They should be blocking off the entire itaewon-ro from noksapyeong to the hooker hill and keeping track of the people entering and leaving and have a protocol for getting first responders in. A nightclub fire would have been equally or even more deadly, the toll could have been in the high hundreds in that event..