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I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

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Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#41

Post by spaceman_2020 »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #14
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #8

India's obsession with paperwork is unceasing and baffling. Everything requires an application, even when everything can be done digitally. You need letters and stamps to get anything done. Case in point: the "company stamps" that are required for everything you do with your business. From getting a debit card to changing the maturity instructions for a corporate deposit, you need to sign your name AND stamp it with…

dude. unless you are doing some space age shit or something, you don't need to set up a company in india to do business. sure the whole "limited liability" and that but in reality that is just a smokescreen. just use your personal pan card to open a bank account, get a GST registration, do income tax audit and you will be done. No compliance, no nothing. i do taxes and books for businesses with 250+ Crore turnover an…

Unfortunately you need to incorporate if you want to raise venture funding. You'll also struggle to get taken seriously by good tech talent if you try to hire them as a proprietorship.

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#42

Post by Alkim »

eunos wrote: post #39
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #8

India's obsession with paperwork is unceasing and baffling. Everything requires an application, even when everything can be done digitally. You need letters and stamps to get anything done. Case in point: the "company stamps" that are required for everything you do with your business. From getting a debit card to changing the maturity instructions for a corporate deposit, you need to sign your name AND stamp it with…

>Why? I have no idea! Legacy of British civil service and bureaucracy ?

...and an effectively unlimited labour supply

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#43

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sonthonax wrote: post #36
agileAlligator wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes Duh?

There’s a distinction to be made between a small customary bribe to an seriously underpaid state employee, and a larcenous bribe to a high official.

> a distinction to be made between a small customary bribe to an seriously underpaid state employee, and a larcenous bribe to a high official

Not really. If normalized, it's part of their expected compensation package. Practically speaking, I think I'd suck it up and pay the bribe in the author's position. But I'd know I was doing wrong.

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#44

Post by napier »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #10
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #8

India's obsession with paperwork is unceasing and baffling. Everything requires an application, even when everything can be done digitally. You need letters and stamps to get anything done. Case in point: the "company stamps" that are required for everything you do with your business. From getting a debit card to changing the maturity instructions for a corporate deposit, you need to sign your name AND stamp it with…

Countries with high paperwork and bureaucratic burden are famous for also being highly corrupt. This is probably not a coincidence. Likely all the excess paperwork makes it easier to hide what's really going on, easy to provide roadblocks for those who don't pay, and easier to generally hide bad activity in a sea of noise.

Absolutely. Also, in paperwork superpowers, oftentimes the only ways to get things done are by resorting to what global consensus evaluative norms view as corruption, and a significant form proportion of what goes on frankly is corruption of corruption of the parasitical criminal kind... but there's also a great deal of routing around dysfunctional nodes in the system with legitimate intent on all sides.

Interpersonal networks and middlemen routers evolve over time into parallel tracks of shared understanding about how to achieve mundane process flows and solve problems when the official channels are broken.

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#45

Post by sam_goody »

I do not understand the authors issue with paying bribes. You want your factory, you are willing to pay lots of money for it, and the system works with bribes.

Fine, so be it. Pay the bribes and get to work.

I once lived in such a country*. The unfairness is built in, but if you have the money, you can get whatever you need relatively quickly.

If you are trying to save money, fine. But you are willing to go to court, which is even more expensive. And all that time wasted you could have been earning revenue. So instead, pay the bribes, start the company, get workers and build clout, and have the power to make change!

* Said country has made huge strides to combat this and become legit in the past 30 years, and that has made everyone more wealthy - even those employees that can no longer collect bribes.

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#46

Post by franciscop »

giva wrote: post #6

> Yes, you need to obtain “permission” before you build any manufacturing structure on your own land with your own money. This permission is called the NA or Non-Agricultural Certificate. Well, I though it was this way everywhere in the world. In Europe, at least, you cannot build anything on agricultural land unless it is a n agricultural structure or you get the classification changed, which is not easy.

I have a funny story from Spain:

My father's has an orange field, so at some point he wanted to dig a well to get some water.

He went to the City Hall, got all the tricky paperwork and applied for permission to build it. Months passed by without hearing anything, and at some point he just forgot about it, assuming he'd be denied silently. There's some people in the city hall don't like him too much BTW.

Few years later an official from the government came, "I'm here to check on the well you built", to which my father was of course confused "what well? You never gave me permission to dig it!". Apparently and according to this official, the normal thing to do is that you apply for permission, then build the project and finally then you'll receive the permission eventually, so he'd assumed my father had the well built already. Since as mentioned some people were against him, he was also not gonna officially break the law and build it before getting permission.

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#47

Post by napier »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #14
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #8

India's obsession with paperwork is unceasing and baffling. Everything requires an application, even when everything can be done digitally. You need letters and stamps to get anything done. Case in point: the "company stamps" that are required for everything you do with your business. From getting a debit card to changing the maturity instructions for a corporate deposit, you need to sign your name AND stamp it with…

dude. unless you are doing some space age shit or something, you don't need to set up a company in india to do business. sure the whole "limited liability" and that but in reality that is just a smokescreen. just use your personal pan card to open a bank account, get a GST registration, do income tax audit and you will be done. No compliance, no nothing. i do taxes and books for businesses with 250+ Crore turnover an…

You need limited liability at larger scale and an official entity to get low interest loans, support and above the counter investor funding. These systems need new company centred reform and redesign to remove friction causing elements like OP describes to enable Indian entrepreneurship to realise its untapped potential in India as well as overseas. The amount of bureaucracy left behind by the British and the layer upon layer of mindless inefficiency added since is stifling innovation, adaptation and growth like nothing else.

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#48

Post by lelanthran »

agileAlligator wrote: post #33
pseudo0 wrote: post #18

It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes in an area where bribery is customary: > Obviously, they are playing “hard to get” to get me to pay some bribe and initiate the process. But after going through all this, I am not going to pay any bribe to anyone. And: > And they openly demanded bribes after waiting for four months. > So the Gram Panchayat NOC is stuck because of non…

> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes Duh?

>> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes

> Duh?

It's only "Duh" because you snipped the qualifier out. It's not "Duh" if you read until the end of the sentence like you normally do:

> in an area where bribery is customary

See?

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#49

Post by tomcam »

rob74 wrote: post #28
giva wrote: post #6

> Yes, you need to obtain “permission” before you build any manufacturing structure on your own land with your own money. This permission is called the NA or Non-Agricultural Certificate. Well, I though it was this way everywhere in the world. In Europe, at least, you cannot build anything on agricultural land unless it is a n agricultural structure or you get the classification changed, which is not easy.

This! In Germany it's simply not possible to declare a parcel of your own choosing as "Non-Agricultural". Land is of course taken out of agricultural use and reclassified for industrial or residential use, but only in predefined areas. Of course there's lobbying and speculation involved, because reclassification multiplies the value of the parcels, but it takes much longer than a year from the first proposal until yo…

Very similar in most parts of the US

Re: I tried starting a manufacturing unit in India (2020)

#50

Post by primax »

lelanthran wrote: post #48
agileAlligator wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes Duh?

>> It seems like the problem is that the author has a moral objection to paying bribes > Duh? It's only "Duh" because you snipped the qualifier out. It's not "Duh" if you read until the end of the sentence like you normally do: > in an area where bribery is customary See?

I mean, isn't it extraordinarily clear that he doesn't want to pay bribes and that bribes are customary. Hence... duh?
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