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Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#351
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a website to help visualize American meat consumption in terms of animals slaughtered per second. It’s pretty insane and I think does something to help communicate just how large such industrial operations truly are. https://zach.ws/meat/

I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

The idea of going full Fargo on little chickens is new to me. And that is the humane way...

There are definitely ways to improve the system to require a bit less cruelty.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not equate animal lives to human lives. I am fine with the death of billions of animals to keep humans fed. This is their job. This is the way of nature. We’ve just streamlined it a bit

I agree. Humans have struggled to feed themselves since the beginning. We finally, only recently, figured out how to make people not starve to death and now we have people saying we are morally wrong for living how humans always wanted to. I think sone people need the guilt of being alive religion gave them. But they rejected traditional methods and invented a new religion of self hatred. Humans as sinners that need…

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#353
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a website to help visualize American meat consumption in terms of animals slaughtered per second. It’s pretty insane and I think does something to help communicate just how large such industrial operations truly are. https://zach.ws/meat/

I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

No post body was provided.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#354
post #209

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What gets me is that over a quarter of that (26% as of 2010 by USDA's estimates) is simply thrown away.

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It'll please you to learn that cows pee.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#355
post #37

Devastatingly sad. Are plant-based meat replacements and lab-grown meat going to help fix this?

One day, whilst eating a burger in a pub and thinking about the food chain, I ran a thought experiment in my head. I imagined being hungry and someone offering me a choice between a ham sandwich or a vegan sandwich. I could only select the ham sandwich if I was willing to shoot a pig in the head. I wouldn’t have to butcher the pig or anything else, just be responsible for its death. I decided that I would choose the…

Thinking about something getting shot in the head isn't too helpful, because you could realistically run a similar moral exercise on just about every thing you encounter in modern life, and find that somewhere, something along the line from raw material to finished product is getting either literally or proverbially shot in the head.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#356

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> There are plenty of people I would say are more important/valuable than me. So by this thinking humans are not interchangeable? > And I can imagine species that would be more important/valuable than humans; they just don't seem to exist here and now. Really? You think the single celled organisms and plants responsible for producing oxygen, those responsible for decay, even those present within the digestive tracks…

> You think the single celled organisms and plants responsible for producing oxygen, those responsible for decay, even those present within the digestive tracks of all animals, are not more important/valuable than humans? Weren't we talking about most important animal? But when it comes to most important, things a million different species can do are much less important. Let alone the fact that we can produce oxygen…

> Weren't we talking about most important animal?

You’re right. I slipped into talking about species on the whole, my bad.

That said, I think it’s really important to clarify what we mean by important. Do we mean powerful, impactful? Or do we mean the lives of the individuals of that species are more valuable?

Back to powerful/impactful, if we’re talking about purely animals, then I’d look to pollinators. Would you argue that humans are more important to the functioning of the world than pollinators?

> But when it comes to most important, things a million different species can do are much less important.

Again, what do we mean by important? Power?

> Let alone the fact that we can produce oxygen and decay organic matter.

If we were to rely purely on humanity’s ability to produce oxygen and decay organic matter, the majority of life on Earth, humans included, would quickly die and then pile up, undecaying. There’s no comparison between our ability and the ability of the species that are specialized for this. It’s like comparing Einstein’s and a crow’s ability to flesh out physics. Sure, the crow might be able to solve some physics-based puzzles, but it’s on a very basic level.

> As for everything else, I don't feel like you're even trying to understand my argument. But if you're that confused it's only going to be a waste of time for me to go on.

I admittedly made some assumptions about your argument, and have been arguing against those assumptions. This is because I’m genuinely unclear on your argument. If you can clarify a couple things:

1) What exactly do we mean by important?

2) What are the boundaries of ability by which we can define humans as interchangeable, but humans and nonhuman animals as not, that are not rationalized after the fact?

If we establish these things I think we can make some progress instead of talking past each other.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#357
post #252

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>Almost 40% of all food in the US is wasted each year and that's enough to feed every hungry person on earth. You have a feasible plan to distribute all the wasted food in the U.S. to all the world's hungry people that you'd like to share?

Easy: eliminate the zoning restrictions that forbid corner grocery stores. When you can walk five minutes to the store, you can buy just what you need for today (and maybe tomorrow). Then you will eat it and not throw it out. It will cost more per, but since you are not wasting any of it, you still pay less.

dont grocery stores and restaurants throw away the most?

and then you also need like daily delivery trucks for these spots...

im not against bodegas and more grocery access. just not sure its gonna solve anything here. but idk

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#358
post #189
post #94

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I honestly think this is going to have the opposite effect of what you think it will. People outside of metropolitan areas are sick to death of “new traditions and practices” and “high profile” names. They see it as another bourgeoisie vs proletariat battleground. They do not want “new food culture” they want the existing culture but more environmentally friendly. You aren’t going to pry the burgers out of their hand…

You need only few % of the population protesting in the streets (less than 5% imho) to topple an authoritarian regime. I suppose with sufficient vegan base the political will to remove (huge) subsidies for meat/dairy industry will materialize. It simply doesn't make sense that meat burger/milk is cheaper than plant-based burger/milk now. You need 100x more land to produce same amount of calories (beef vs. peas). Remo…

People act like it will be easy to remove the huge subsidies from these bad industries, but imo the fact that these subsidies are so huge and so ridiculous from anyone from the outset to see is proof that they are not going anywhere. These lobbies are seriously entrenched and probably as powerful as they come.

Plus there is more that a cow is used for than just ground beef. 99% of the cow is used for things. You'd have to bring a capable alternative to market for each and every part of the cow that currently sees a use if you want to end pasturalism, and right now even coming up with an alternative to the most common use people think of when it comes to a cow is hard enough.

Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an unrepentant meat eater, but your visualization was absolutely fantastic. I would add that (my maybe incorrect napkin math) shows that 5 Americans die per minute to give it scale. My understanding is also that we destroy an absolutely phenomenal amount of chicks in an entirely gruesome way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling I have trouble handling that.

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Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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I think you make it sound easier than it is. I also decided over dinner one evening. Then I realized meat was in almost every meal I loved. I tried them without meat and hated it. Habit I guess. Then I realized I'd rather be a bad person than a miserable person; that it was wrong, but I'd do it anyway. This is what you're up against -- the sad but brutal reality of apathy and willful disregard. Mea culpa.

I went vegan for about a year not too long ago. Just thought I’d try it. I ended up really liking it, mainly because it got me a bit more comfortable cooking and trying recipes and ingredients I would never have considered. I’m not vegan anymore, primarily because of a living situation (roomies.) I like meat, but I’m still thrilled to whip up a good quick vegan or vegetarian dish now and then.

However, if you take a meat centered dish and just remove the meat, or throw in a meat-like substitute (beyond burgers more than something like tofu or seitan), then yeah, it’s not going to be great. Vegetarian and vegan recipes are often really good precisely because they don’t attempt replace meat with anything. Instead I think they rely more on spice and flavor combinations.

You’re not going to find a replacement for a killer dry-aged ny strip steak that’s grilled to perfection. But you might find a fantastic curry, kimchi stew, roasted pepper, or black bean burger recipe that help to broaden your tastes and get comfortable eating less meat.

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