Earlier quoted context omitted.
Humans are more important by far. This idea that a cow’s life is as precious as a human’s life is the worst type of misanthropic thought. There is a hierarchy and although we shouldn’t torture living things, giving them “1 bad day” is totally ethical when used to endure and pleasure. I admit we don’t live up to that standard necessarily, but we should strive for it. Ideally everyone that wants to is eating happy anim…
> Humans are more important by far. From the perspective of which species? Does might make right? For intra-human relationships as well? Could anything evil happen as a result of embracing this outlook?
Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
211–220 of 447 posts
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't know about you but I'm quite happy to be alive and reasonably healthy I think the important thing to contemplate is that this might be at the expense of other people, living or yet to be born. Not that we've done anything wrong – just that the circumstances that make this possible for us might preclude it for others. > nihilistic platitudes like "how is there still an ecosystem?" are completely baffling to…
> I think the important thing to contemplate is that [being happy to be alive and reasonably healthy] might be at the expense of other people, living or yet to be born. Not that we've done anything wrong – just that the circumstances that make this possible for us might preclude it for others this is called the natural order of things. nature is competition. this is all self-evident. all of our ancestors innately und…
The natural order of things is only important inasmuch as it is a stable, desirable order. Lots of things we don't like happen in nature: starvation, disease, rape, murder, torture, isolation, immense pain. If these things happen to us we don't blithely say, "Ah, the natural order of things. It's all good!"
People want to preserve the natural order because they like the things they find in it. These things make them happy. Also, they like security. The natural order has persisted, with occasional mass extinctions and other disasters, for quite some time, so splitting off from the natural order into something that holds no promise of stability and security doesn't seem like a good choice.
But to the extent possible people who value nature and stability of existing ecosystems are still picking and choosing for themselves from what nature offers. No disease, please. Delayed senescence, please. No freezing to death or drowning. Less tooth decay.
And I suspect you don't adopt a throw-up-my-hands-and-let-shit-happen philosophy in your own life. You look both ways before you cross the street. You don't eat every mushroom you see. You stop walking when you come to a cliff edge.
So basically "[being happy to be alive and reasonably healthy] might be at the expense of other people, living or yet to be born. Not that we've done anything wrong – just that the circumstances that make this possible for us might preclude it for others" is just applying this same foresight and judgment more broadly. The qualitative difference is that it is not selfish. It is the difference between "I shouldn't step on this landmine" and "I shouldn't place a landmine where someone else will step". Why do this? Again, the same old reason: other people's happiness makes you happy; other people's sadness makes you sad.
When we want the natural order, it's only by accident.
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or perhaps Agent Smith mistook an S-curve that hasn't started to level off yet for unfettered exponential growth. > Generally, developed nations have seen a decline in their growth rates in recent decades ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth#Population_g... ) Or perhaps he was just evil and had a hatred of humanity that he was justifying with whatever reason pleased him.
But has their resource consumption per capita leveled off? Population numbers aren't the scary thing about our CURRENT population. What's scary is that China and India, which is almost 3 billion people, want US-levels of resource consumption, and they are full steam ahead in doing so. Oh, so the curve will tail off around 11 or 15 billion? Who cares. Each billion is 3x the population of the US, and they all want our…
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it is the individual animal that is the fundamental unit. Not. This is a very common mistake among people that does not understand ecology.
You can call me a heretic for questioning His Majesty The Ecologist, but the emperor wears no clothes and percentage of aggregate biomass is the most meaningless metric I've ever heard to study mammals.
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
Humans are more important by far. This idea that a cow’s life is as precious as a human’s life is the worst type of misanthropic thought. There is a hierarchy and although we shouldn’t torture living things, giving them “1 bad day” is totally ethical when used to endure and pleasure. I admit we don’t live up to that standard necessarily, but we should strive for it. Ideally everyone that wants to is eating happy anim…
> Humans are more important by far. From the perspective of which species? Does might make right? For intra-human relationships as well? Could anything evil happen as a result of embracing this outlook?
I think it’s important to not treat animals like humans precisely so we don’t treat humans like calorie sources.
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're body building or doing serious exercise, it can be hard to get the protein your body needs to recover and build muscle on a strictly vegan diet. I've tried it and it's difficult.
Hard to get the protein? That's the oldest excuse in the book. Debunked endlessly. Simply not true. https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/ https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_... https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-... https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/ And…
Your own source admits that it is difficult to get enough protein in a vegan diet without supplementation. I'm on a medication that increases my insulin response, and I can't eat 400+ grams of carbohydrates a day just to get ~100 grams of protein without both getting fat and putting myself at risk of pre-diabetes.
> https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-...
Many of these are just carbohydrates. One of the recipes is literally just overnight oats, others are full of bread, grains and other carbohydrates with little to no protein at all.
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Humans are more important by far. From the perspective of which species? Does might make right? For intra-human relationships as well? Could anything evil happen as a result of embracing this outlook?
The human perspective. There are extraordinarily few chickens participating in HN comment threads.
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#218Going off on a tangent, but the scale of production is very hard to grasp. I'm probably not the first person to observe this, but I once did some napkin math about steel production, and what I realized kind of blew me away. About 1.9 billion tonnes in 2020. Like with billions of dollars, I have no intuition for such numbers. Context is needed. Global steel production just before WW I was about 70 million tonnes. So p…
I made a website to help visualize American meat consumption in terms of animals slaughtered per second. It’s pretty insane and I think does something to help communicate just how large such industrial operations truly are. https://zach.ws/meat/
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#219Consider the minimum space and resources necessary to maintain a software developer.
Consider amputation of unnecessary limbs.
Re: Wild mammal biomass has declined by 85% since the rise of humans
#220The sad thing is that 100 years ago humans and livestock accounted for around 5% of the biomass (all zoomass, not land mammals only), 95% being the wildlife. Now the numbers are reversed. We've stolen the land from the wildlife and dedicated it to a few species we consider edible (agriland is more than forests now, and 75% of it for animal agriculture). Is anybody surprised that we're living in the anthropocene, defi…
Reminds me of George Carlin, "The earth will be fine..."
Is it the sense that people care about or is it a rhetorical trick to make people feel good about not caring?