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US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

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Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#181
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt servicing is a constant thing for businesses to be able to make payroll and acquire inventory for later resale or processing. Based on your thoughts here I'm going to assume you haven't worked at a small business before. If you have it must have been awesome to work at a place that didn't have to borrow money constantly.

I've worked in small start ups before, but all boot strapped out of pocket / revenue. Wouldn't having to borrow money constantly be a red flag that the business is bad / not profitable?

Depends. If your income comes in 90 days post invoice, but you pay monthly then borrowing some money to smooth over cash flow makes loads of sense. If you need to buy loads of stuff to sell, it also makes sense. Software businesses are pretty weird in the lack of capital costs.

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#182
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We took a hard look at the economy before buying our house. Ultimately, we bought when interest rates were high, but prices had not yet come down. There's no crystal ball, but it sure looks like our investment will go down in value in the next few years, perhaps precipitously. I think of it this way: We bought the house we want for the price we can afford, and will happily enjoy it for two decades without price infla…

Glad you’re content. If you’re in the US, As a bonus, just remember that the US gov always does everything it can to keep housing prices stable or up. Of course it’s not an easy problem for them, but you’re in the same boat as millions of other ppl and the govt won’t let you crash out that hard.

> As a bonus, just remember that the US gov always does everything it can to keep housing prices stable or up

What country doesn't do this? China surely does that even more aggressively than the USA; Australia, yep; so...Japan? That's the only country I can think of that doesn't mind some long term lowering of housing prices.

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#183
post #2

>Housing investment, though, plunged at a 26% annual pace, hammered by surging mortgage rates as the Federal Reserve aggressively raises borrowing costs to combat chronic inflation. It was the sixth straight quarterly drop in residential investment. Thank christ. Please bring on a housing crash ASAP.

If housing prices go down, but mortgage rates go up, are we still screwed?

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Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortgage rates at 7% is pretty much the average mortgage rate going back 70 years or so. We're basically at the average mortgage rate now. The Fed screwed up by keeping rates too low for too long which juiced home prices such that a huge chunk of people who would like to be able to buy a home are priced out of the market. The problem, though, is that home building needs to continue in order to improve the housing sup…

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Labor tightness seems to be one of the drivers of the broader inflation. Additional labor may help keep that inflation under control without having to nuke the economy.

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#185
post #134

This is terrible news. Without a recession to curb inflation, the fed will have to get far more extreme with interest rates to get inflation back down. I thought that rates might top out around the end of the year, but now the fed may have to keep raising aggressively well into next year. Mortgages and the housing market are going to get slammed. This is going to get much worse than I previously expected.

That sounds like the opposite of terrible. We are long overdue for some bloodletting in residential real estate markets.

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#186

The Yield curve, Mortgage Rates, Bonds and Asset Prices are all in bad shape. Combined with rapidly falling income (due to 15%+ real inflation) it's a disaster in the making. Homes will likely fall 30-35% in adjusted value in the next 12 months. A lot of people's net worth is in their homes. This will be the largest post WWII drop in home prices. Don't forget the strong dollar is crushing economies around the world,…

This is the dumbest "recession" because it comes on the dumbest asset pump. The S&P is still up 13% from pre-pandemic. That's slightly below historic the historic average, but nothing to be alarmed about. Home prices are still WAAAAAAY above historic averages. Even if they drop 20%, they'll still be way up. The only people that will get hosed are speculators. You didn't "lose" money if you lost "unrealized gains".

Yup.

It was pretty much all avoidable if policymakers had been more responsible. But they weren’t.

Dropping rates to pull wealth from the future into the present finally hit the brick wall of inflation.

This whole scenario has made it clear we’ve been abusing monetary policy for what fiscal policy should have been used for

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#187

This is the weirdest "recession" I can remember. Business leaders are constantly talking about how challenging the economic environment is and the need for layoffs etc. Meanwhile most of the underlying indicators are actually positive. Growth is strong, employment is strong. Anecdotally we're still having trouble finding good candidates. It's almost like there is a class of business leaders who are just trying to wis…

There never was a real recession - it's an artifact of year-over-year numbers that were so skewed from pandemic effects. Pent-up consumer demand shifted much activity from 2020 into 2021. This is the source of all the apparent weirdness. Every yearly number in 2021 looked great thanks to comparing an artificially high number to an artificially low 2020 baseline. Then every yearly number from 2022 looks terrible, beca…

> The inflation of 2022 is also largely an illusion - it's really just that a few percentage points of what should have been normal inflation in 2020 and first-half 2021 was time-shifted into 2022.

Food prices are up 48% at the nations second largest grocery chain.

Rent prices are now through the roof, 20-30% year over year increases are common in major cities.

Things are more expensive, full stop, and it isn't just "an extra year" more expensive.

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is weird, they say history does not repeat but it rhymes. What is troubling about this good news about GDP growth is the fed's course of raising interest rates will continue on and interest rates will keep getting higher and higher. This will lead to a housing market that will grind to a halt and expect that whole sector will hemorrhage jobs. In addition growth companies will be hit hard by rates being high as we…

Mortgage rates at 7% is pretty much the average mortgage rate going back 70 years or so. We're basically at the average mortgage rate now. The Fed screwed up by keeping rates too low for too long which juiced home prices such that a huge chunk of people who would like to be able to buy a home are priced out of the market. The problem, though, is that home building needs to continue in order to improve the housing sup…

> The Fed screwed up by keeping rates too low for too long which juiced home prices such that a huge chunk of people who would like to be able to buy a home are priced out of the market.

I disagree: if Jane first home buyer has an income of $50000, and can only just afford $30000 per year on their mortgage, Jane will bid on a house the maximum she can afford. I agree that over the long term, with everybody acting the same as Jane, then the price of homes is mostly controlled by the interest rates. However interest rates, per se, do not affect the affordability of homes very much.

There are secondary effects that do change things. However the primary market dynamic of bidding as-much-as-you-can-afford means that affordability doesn’t change much. (It also means your population is playing a zero-sum bidding game of how-much-can-we-pay-the-banks, which is bad, especially in New Zealand which doesn’t own most of its banks).

Secondly, the usual answer is to increase housing supply. That would work only if there can be a super-abundance of new supply in a suburb. Think of a desirable locarion, and let’s magically create 20% more homes there. Would that fix supply? No, because the latent demand is far bigger than 20%. Why? Firstly, in my circles in Christchurch NZ, relatively well-off people own multiple homes: their primary home in the suburbs, sometimes a second home or an investment property (rented or Airbnb), ideally a holiday home somewhere which is often empty, perhaps even a town-house in a city. Secondly, in my other circles there are a lot of people sharing a home (one home split into several flats, flatting, still living with parents), so there is a huge latent demand for people that want their own home.

I think that in many desirable suburbs, you could double the number of homes and prices would not shift down in the slightest. For people to own their own homes needs something new to happen.

We have had a housing boom going on in Christchurch for say 5 years now, and house prices went up and up, because people bid what they can afford. Projections are for housing to increase faster than population in Christchurch, but that is not fixing affordability. Statistics: “Christchurch City's most recent population estimate was 392,000 (June 2021). The 2010/2011 earthquakes resulted in a net loss of around 21,000 people, but by 2017 the city's population had recovered to pre-earthquake levels. Projections suggest that by 2028 the population is likely to be around 417,000 under a medium growth scenario.” “In 2018, there were an estimated 148,000 households in Christchurch city. Projections suggest that this will likely increase to around 161,000 households by 2028 (medium series).” https://ccc.govt.nz/culture-and-community/statistics-and-fac... I don’t understand their projections, because on the same page they show a graph with more than 10000 new homes already. Also we have massive housing growth outside of Christchurch - I have seen recent large subdivisions in: Rolleston, Lincoln, West Melton, Amberley, Methvyn, etcetera.

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We took a hard look at the economy before buying our house. Ultimately, we bought when interest rates were high, but prices had not yet come down. There's no crystal ball, but it sure looks like our investment will go down in value in the next few years, perhaps precipitously. I think of it this way: We bought the house we want for the price we can afford, and will happily enjoy it for two decades without price infla…

I've been waiting for the real estate market to crash for 20 years... On the other, my savings are worth less and less.

Well it crashed ~10 years ago, so there was your chance.

But lucky for you there’ll be another opportunity soon

Re: US economy returned to growth last quarter, expanding 2.6%

#190
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stimulus checks were what $2000 total. That's less than 10% on a new car and most competent banks look at your monthly payment and DTI to determine how much to loan. > A recession is bad for the party in power and a lot of the economic catastrophe drumbeat started around the time early polls opened up. They've moved from economy to gas and the polls are now on crime. Really anything to stir up FUD.

Apparently there was a lot of 2008 style "ignoring the fundamentals" going on in the auto lending industry because the banks had tightened up the home lending market and the stupid money needed a new place to go. There is the further instability from the government loan crisis in China combined with continuing zero-COVID lockdowns hurting production. However, I think the China problems are being hugely overblown in t…

> Unbelievably credulous predictions that the Chinese government is going to topple on its own in the next few months are just plain out of touch.

Isn't that just a straw man? Most serious reporting on China are just predicting a substantial slow down in growth (or even recession), which is what is playing out right now. Chinese emigration rates, which were dropping for many years before, are actually growing again (mostly due to zero COVID and lagging economic growth).

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