Also, the climate helps.
We have 25C in Bilbao. >30C expected at the weekend.
We usually get UK weather on Fall, and it didn't rain in weeks...
No chilly-windy Winters, but the "alternative" we are living on looks far worse.
Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
61–70 of 197 posts
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#62It's the same with electricity markets: at times there's so much wind and nuclear power that the spot price goes below zero in Europe as well as in the US: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266679242... I still pay around 5 cents/kWh to the middlemen though so consumption hasn't been profitable to me so far.
Where are you based if you are paying five cents? Here in Germany, I pay 10 times
that much.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#63Normally you run storage facilities neither all the way full nor all the way empty: you want to be able to smooth out fluctuations in supply and demand. Because of the war Europe is running gas storage near its upper limit, which means we should expect less flexibility and more price volatility: they won't want to draw them way down if we get a serious cold snap, and they have nowhere to put extra gas if it's warmer…
Are you saying that by holding onto so much gas that there’s less in active circulation therefore it leads price increases?
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Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#64Spot prices are just that spot prices. Just like oil prices dropped below zero for short period during shutdown. Now this happened with gas. Doesn't necessarily tell too much for next months.
The oil prices that went negative were actually futures, not spot prices.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We, too, have not switched on the gas based heating yet. Instead, we are using a mix of wood and infrared electrical heaters In the event that your electric power is derived from gas, you've shifted the burden elsewhere and actually increased overall gas consumption, since using gas to warm your home directly would be more efficient.
Not if the electric heaters aren't producing the same amount of heat. The comment suggested they've reduced heat consumption.
Producing that amount of heat with gas would still be better than using electricity.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#66> Natural gas prices just dipped below zero. > Those ships [are] carrying about $2 billion worth of LNG. Really?
The $2 Bln quote could be historical but in real time live spot prices at the present, the rates cratered momentarily to zero or even negative territories.
Luckily, LNG ships can simply be parked at sea until prices rise again, same for oil tankers. Pipelines going into almost full storage don't have that luxury.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#67I really don't understand the doom and gloom wrt next year. What was obviously completely underestimated was the elasticity of consumer demand for gas. In Germany, consumers are using 25% less gas even if you account for the weather. So with increased supply from Netherlands and Norway, even a limited amount of LNG will probably be enough to fill the storage again and compensate the missing Russian gas (which account…
> What was obviously completely underestimated was the elasticity of consumer demand for gas I don't think it was evident that individuals and businesses would be willing to make some of these changes they have. For example, German companies are planning on shutting down factories for the winter. Cities are planning on ending night lighting. In addition, winter so far has been fairly warm. It may still turn cold, so…
No post body was provided.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#68I really don't understand the doom and gloom wrt next year. What was obviously completely underestimated was the elasticity of consumer demand for gas. In Germany, consumers are using 25% less gas even if you account for the weather. So with increased supply from Netherlands and Norway, even a limited amount of LNG will probably be enough to fill the storage again and compensate the missing Russian gas (which account…
I think you’re basically right, but just noting that winter hasn’t started yet and climate change has blessed Europe with an unseasonably warm October.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not if the electric heaters aren't producing the same amount of heat. The comment suggested they've reduced heat consumption.
Producing that amount of heat with gas would still be better than using electricity.
Depends on the generation method. If OP's using solar panels, it's a net positive. If their power is largely generated by nuclear or hydro, also a net positive.
If it's generated by fossil fuels, agreed.
Re: Europe now has so much natural gas that prices just dipped below zero
#70Normally you run storage facilities neither all the way full nor all the way empty: you want to be able to smooth out fluctuations in supply and demand. Because of the war Europe is running gas storage near its upper limit, which means we should expect less flexibility and more price volatility: they won't want to draw them way down if we get a serious cold snap, and they have nowhere to put extra gas if it's warmer…
>you want to be able to smooth out fluctuations in supply and demand. Can you say a bit more about the "you" mentioned? I can imagine "you"s who care only about having heating during wintertime.
From context, it seems that the "you" in question is "a company that runs a natural gas storage space." As a company with fiduciary responsibilities, they likely can't concern themselves too much with the problem you mention.