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Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

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Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#91

It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why. I worked in a pseudo-Apple-store during the height of the 30-pin dock connector and I sold so many cases, speaker docks, charging cables, and all sorts of weird accessories that were built for the 30-pin connector. Then Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way. And yet people got burnt. There was so much hardware that wa…

If resentment from rendering existing accessories obsolete due to changing connectors is the root cause of the delay, maybe Apple has been secretly waiting for the EU legislation so it can deflect the blame? e.g. "it's EU forcing our hands so we have to change."

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#92
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try asking the same enthusiasts who are adamant that switching to USB-C is no big deal and legacy cruft needs to be eliminated what they think about switching to a new PCIe power connector. Forget the 12VHPWR problems, we had a push for a new connector last gen too and it was universally reviled for some reason. People do not want a new connector, let alone a new voltage rail to help move that power a little more saf…

> The contrast between "force Apple to stop adhering to legacy standards, USB-C is the future!!!" and "gubmint hands off muh 8-pin aux connectors!!!" is interesting. Both of these are the same stance to me, "existing industry standards appear to suffice, why foist something different on the market?" I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes so that last bit is probably exaggeration but seems misplac…

> existing industry standards appear to suffice

reminder: lightning came first, because the industry couldn't get its shit together and agree on a successor to micro-b, despite acknowledgement of the shortcomings.

lightning is the pcie 8-pin in this comparison: you may not like the technical limitations it imposes, but, it works well enough that you can build products around it. So why impose a change to The Current Thing and do this whole big changeover if it's already working well enough?

could it be better? sure. And you could do better than pcie 8-pin too. But that's the hardware that's in people's hands right now.

> I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes

sure they are, what do you think this article is literally about? The EU handed a technological monopoly via legislative fiat to the USB-IF here. You don't have to follow it, but you can't sell your goods in the EU if you don't.

Why could we not require DIY parts sold in the EU to adhere to a new "pcie module" standard and outlaw sale of legacy form-factors outside enterprise/specialty use-cases (like engineered HPC systems and other enterprise, non-consumer products)? Most of those guys are on their own mezzanine standards anyway for the important stuff. Just declare "we're gonna make the change" and give companies a few years to implement it and get hardware into consumer hands, and then flip the switch and ban sale of the legacy products. It's not a big deal to update if you actually get buy-in from companies, but you can't have half the industry go one way and half the industry go another, because then it's a mess, and in the meantime if you have half the companies digging in their heels nothing changes. Just like USB connectors.

The really ironic thing is that if PCIe could make the same transition as USB - towards 48V power delivery - it would all be a lot easier and safer. USB is literally the model for moving forward here lol, and if you upgrade your PSU you could even keep your legacy connector (48v lets you deliver 4x the power at the same current). But people aren't interested in moving forward for the sake of moving forward - the interest in ditching legacy standards vanishes as soon as you bring up a standard their brand favors.

It's just an extension of the brand wars. It's not about USB-C vs Lightning, you could simply mandate adoption of the power delivery standards and usb 3.0 speeds (ipad pro already supports usb-3.0 over lightning) if you wanted. It's about Android vs Apple and people are only interested in ditching legacy standards when it can be tied to their brand war. People absolutely don't care about the connector, and it's not about what came first (which was Lightning). They care about The Other Guy getting a thumb in their eye and having the EU legally outlaw the Apple standard. The thrill of having the EU legislatively confirm that Android Is Better.

And ATX vs future-power is turning into a proxy war for AMD vs NVIDIA too. It's mildly disgusting, like sure I'd love to move forward on eliminating legacy standards cruft, but if you want to talk sacred cows then ATX/pcie-add-in-card are #1 and #2 on the list. People aren't raising the "legacy standard" thing in good faith at all, it's just brand warriorism and the instant you ask them to change their crufty legacy standard the answer is no.

Brands are now competing and marketing to customers on the basis of refusing to adopt the new standard despite its official adoption into ATX - that's so obviously problematic that it invites the same kind of governmental action as the EU took with USB. This is how you're supposed to do it according to the USB model and industry-consensus model that the EU favors. But oh, this is my brand and my sacred cow, you can't make me change a cable, that's not fair! And literally it's the most mild possible change, ATX working group is bending over backwards to maintain PSU compatibility and it's causing problems with heating/connection quality/damage. Really we need to move up to 48V like USB did, but enthusiasts are going to pitch an even bigger hissy fit over that.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I expect out of a USB-C cord shipped by apple with my phone is the ability to charge (which is what I get with an iPad, which uses USB-C). I'd love to expect more, but a Thunderbolt cable is stupidly expensive and not worth including by default. Standardization around the markings and marketing for USB-C cables would be f'ing awesome. But I'll take this win regardless.

It’s not Apple that you have to worry about not supporting the full spec - they already do with USB C iPads. It’s the Android manufacturers and your local convenience store. Meaning it is still “contributing to ewaste” when you can’t use your old USB C cords to get all of the functionality that is part of the USB C spec. This is yet another example of EU regulators not thinking through their proposals — see also the…

I'm sorry, but I don't see how we can lay the blame for corporations cutting corners on completely unrelated legislation.

I get that there can be unintended consequences with passed legislation, but these seem too disconnected to be relevant. As in, there have been substandard USB-C cables since USB-C first came out.

The existence of those cables can't be laid at the feet of requiring Apple to use USB-C on the one remaining device they offer which doesn't use USB-C.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#95

I, surprised they hadn’t changed over yet, only major manufacturer not to yet, and they went all in on USB-C on iPads and MacBooks.

"$43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone" ~ https://medium.com/swlh/the-real-reason-apple-doesnt-want-to...

That number is pulled from deep inside somebody's bowels.

The one spare cable per two devices attach rate seems pretty high to me. One, because people won't necessarily buy apple-branded cables when they can buy cheaper third party ones instead. Two, because a lot of the people who are sufficiently deep into the Apple ecosystem that they would buy original cables probably have a bazillion of them lying about anyway, because you get them with the Apple TV, and the Magic Keyboard/Mouse/Trackpad, and the airpods, and all your old phones, and probably some other devices I'm not thinking of right now. So the actual revenue from cable sales seems awfully inflated.

Then there's the counterfactual: Whatever revenue they do get from cables, they wouldn't lose it all. If you consider the people who buy Apple-branded Lightning cables instead of third party cables, I'd hazard guessing that most of them would still have bought Apple-branded USB-C cables if the devices used those. Apple sells USB-C charge cables (like the ones that come with the iPad) for the same $19 as the Lightning cables.

Put the two factors together, and I can't see the economics of cable sales being the driver for something as fundamental as the ports on their flagship products.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#96
As someone that deeply detests Apple and would never give them money, I will admit the lightning connector is superior in durability, inspectability, and safety than USB type C in virtually every way.

The real crime here is that Apple insisted on patenting the design and keeping it for only themselves, forcing the rest of the industry to adopt an inferior connector and ultimately force it on them too.

Classic Apple.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#97

It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why. I worked in a pseudo-Apple-store during the height of the 30-pin dock connector and I sold so many cases, speaker docks, charging cables, and all sorts of weird accessories that were built for the 30-pin connector. Then Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way. And yet people got burnt. There was so much hardware that wa…

Are you proposing the alternative was that Apple kept supporting 30 pin connectors? And despite your anecdotes, evidence shows that switching didn’t hurt Apple sales. What were the people who were “burnt” by Apple abandoning 30 pin connectors going to do? Switch to Android and still have to switch cables?

Not at all. It was an old connector that needed to be replaced. What I'm suggesting is that as a brand with that level of public recognition there is No Good Answer. Every option sucks in some way.

And the same is true again now for USB-C, "just switch to USB-C" is not an answer that sounds good for most people, and Apple is still paying for the bad will from customers from the 30-pin connector transition. The USB-C transition is only going to add to that.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"$43.5B on Lightning cable sales alone" ~ https://medium.com/swlh/the-real-reason-apple-doesnt-want-to...

You really think Apple sells $43B worth of Lightning cables?

The number is probably overinflated as all hell, but the article does arrive at that number as the lifetime total, not yearly sales.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no you're not. sturdier, clicks in better and doesn't wear down the same way. and im not even a apple fan/user.

You've never had a bad connection with Lightning? Every Lightning cable I've ever had has two pins that have become blackened due to frequent arcing. And the "click" is dependent on the quality of the cable. USB-C cables from Apple click in exactly the same as their Lightning cables, for example.

So I had an iPhone 4 which i ditched quite quickly as I thought it was a junk phone and went Android for a while. Picked up again at iPhone 6 when I was paid for some work with an iPhone 6 Plus and have had iPhones since. So that was 2014, 8 years of Lightning ports.

I've had 0 lightening cables break in any capacity.

While the USB-C cables I've had for Headphones, iPad, Asus Keyboard, Corsair Mouse, and a few other little things. I've had to replace 5 cables.

I love the idea of having 1 cable that I can use for everything. But no matter what anyone says, the lightning cable is superior in terms of physical connection.

Re: Apple says iPhones will switch to USB-C chargers to comply with new EU law

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you may not buy the "but muh innovation" - its also sad that that passes for discourse for you - but it is economic fact. whats your opinion on "muh regulatory capture"? what about lightning vs microusb?

Sadly, that is the state of discourse that's coming from the innovation POV. The entire tone of these arguments boils down to an appeal to "common sense" with nothing backing it. And, as repeatedly pointed out, it's not like the EU is preemptively stifling all potential replacements. They're explicitly carving room in the laws for those replacements when they're ready.

It stifles innovation because anyone who wants to use a new connector has to lobby some EU bureaucrats.

How long have we had to click through cookie consent popups on every website? You’d think the EU would be able to update their laws to fix something so simple and annoying. I expect their phone connector standards to be administered with similar competence.

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