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We've invented waterfall

epicenterconsulting.com

61–70 of 172 posts

Re: We've invented waterfall

#61

Waterfall isn't bad in all circumstances. Lockheed Martin isn't iterating a jet into the side of a mountain 100 times until they get it right.

My understanding of early jet planes and test pilots suggests that they were iterating jets through ejections and near-crash experiences. :-)

In the 1950s, test pilots were being killed at the rate of about one a week[1]

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot

Re: We've invented waterfall

#62
post #49

Here's what I would like to see from a consulting company for once. Don't interview the stake holders of the company, they don't use the software like their employees do. They have a high level overview based on feedback from their employees. When you interview them, you're getting second hand information that will likely be missing key points that they forgot to mention or just simply think is obvious and doesn't re…

Let me tell you why you don't see this happening more often. I did this on a project a few years back. I replaced a paper workflow process that was taking up two people each in three departments with a web-based workflow that increased visibility, dropped turn-around time from days to minutes, increased accountability and accuracy and trimmed those 16 person hours of processing down to 1-2 per department. Everyone wh…

There is process called Contextual Design. Part of it talks about treating the tacit knowledge of a workplace like a very necessary requirement for your software. So that means including the culture of the workplace in your reqs.

It sounds dumb at first but it makes perfect sense. What you did at that place was to apply a bandaid to a fracture where it really should have been a cast. But you didn't know it was a fracture because you didn't look past the swelling to the root cause of the pain. This is nothing new, consultants have been loathed for this very reason for a long time now.

That was me telling you how to do your job. If you wanna know more, google it. If ya got offended, have a nice day!

Re: We've invented waterfall

#63
post #62
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you why you don't see this happening more often. I did this on a project a few years back. I replaced a paper workflow process that was taking up two people each in three departments with a web-based workflow that increased visibility, dropped turn-around time from days to minutes, increased accountability and accuracy and trimmed those 16 person hours of processing down to 1-2 per department. Everyone wh…

There is process called Contextual Design. Part of it talks about treating the tacit knowledge of a workplace like a very necessary requirement for your software. So that means including the culture of the workplace in your reqs. It sounds dumb at first but it makes perfect sense. What you did at that place was to apply a bandaid to a fracture where it really should have been a cast. But you didn't know it was a frac…

Personally, I see a very clear line between culture and politics. The people of the various departments didn't have any conflicts. It was strictly between department-heads.

And, for what it's worth, the C-level types loved the project too. What I did was replace a wooden peg with a modern prosthetic and upset the guy who was selling wood oil for conditioning the peg and the guy who sold the leather straps [1].

edit: That said, sure, it'd have been less stressful if I worked in the politics up-front. I said as much. But I've done it that way enough to know it would inevitably have compromised the system. And my post was a response to "why aren't the systems better?".

[1] and him, only because he couldn't see past the loss of the peg-strap business to see the gain of business making, maintaining and adjusting straps for the modern prosthetic.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#64
Actually, this is refreshingly honest compared to the "agile" methodologies. Having worked with plenty of supposedly agile consultants I can tell you they basically do waterfall it's just their cascading stupidity starts with code and then wanders around writing unit tests until the client is tapped out. At least this is doing some actual user interface design and usability testing.

Then again, I doubt these guys do this since it's all marketing.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#65
post #49

Here's what I would like to see from a consulting company for once. Don't interview the stake holders of the company, they don't use the software like their employees do. They have a high level overview based on feedback from their employees. When you interview them, you're getting second hand information that will likely be missing key points that they forgot to mention or just simply think is obvious and doesn't re…

Let me tell you why you don't see this happening more often. I did this on a project a few years back. I replaced a paper workflow process that was taking up two people each in three departments with a web-based workflow that increased visibility, dropped turn-around time from days to minutes, increased accountability and accuracy and trimmed those 16 person hours of processing down to 1-2 per department. Everyone wh…

Having consulted with various branches of the US Govt for about 13 years, I can safely say that this is almost exactly how most govt projects work. They are far more often about satisfying political objectives for bureaucrats than helping the user.

This is why I'm far happier now consulting to startups than to large corporations or the govt.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#66
post #55
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was posted on HN so that we can make fun of it, and I think we're right to do so. You can be as wishy washy as you like about different situations requiring different processes, but have you ever seen somebody successfully isolate software engineering from coding and put them in sequence?

Waterfall is actually considered the very best model for software development, when the requirements are known up front in excruciating detail. An average project experience around 25% change in requirements. Hence waterfall is highly unsuited for the majority of projects, since it does not handle requirement changes well. However, in a few areas such as aeroplane control software, space shuttle software and similar,…

"waterfall" was a made up term invented in a paper to describe a hypothetical development process, not an actual process.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#67
post #64

Actually, this is refreshingly honest compared to the "agile" methodologies. Having worked with plenty of supposedly agile consultants I can tell you they basically do waterfall it's just their cascading stupidity starts with code and then wanders around writing unit tests until the client is tapped out. At least this is doing some actual user interface design and usability testing. Then again, I doubt these guys do…

Really? Claiming to have invented the most well know and also the worst software development process is honest? It's a bold-faced lie written only to get clients.

One can only imagine what actually happens in communication once they have a client. If the marketing is a complete lie, then I can't imagine the company itself can be trusted.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#68
post #57

I actually know Clark Valberg, the founder of Epicenter Consulting, and did some work with him a few years back; he's a great guy. You guys can criticize him all you want, but he actually cares. We should direct our efforts towards the bloodsuckers, not the people giving blood.

We you say "he cares" I presume you mean "cares about slick marketing to clueless clients". Because Epicenter obviously doesn't give a damn about either the truth or software engineering.

I'm sorry, but the people who claim the one true method is keeping the programmers locked in the basement without real world input or feedback are the bloodsuckers.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#69
post #55
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was posted on HN so that we can make fun of it, and I think we're right to do so. You can be as wishy washy as you like about different situations requiring different processes, but have you ever seen somebody successfully isolate software engineering from coding and put them in sequence?

Waterfall is actually considered the very best model for software development, when the requirements are known up front in excruciating detail. An average project experience around 25% change in requirements. Hence waterfall is highly unsuited for the majority of projects, since it does not handle requirement changes well. However, in a few areas such as aeroplane control software, space shuttle software and similar,…

"Waterfall" was defined in a paper describing how NOT to do software development. The problem was that very few people at the time had any process at all with software so seeing this they gave it a try.

Re: We've invented waterfall

#70
post #49

Here's what I would like to see from a consulting company for once. Don't interview the stake holders of the company, they don't use the software like their employees do. They have a high level overview based on feedback from their employees. When you interview them, you're getting second hand information that will likely be missing key points that they forgot to mention or just simply think is obvious and doesn't re…

Let me tell you why you don't see this happening more often. I did this on a project a few years back. I replaced a paper workflow process that was taking up two people each in three departments with a web-based workflow that increased visibility, dropped turn-around time from days to minutes, increased accountability and accuracy and trimmed those 16 person hours of processing down to 1-2 per department. Everyone wh…

Oh God. I sympathise I really do. I have been in that particular situation twice and never again. I am very wary about internal politics in certain types of organisation and like to have a full overview of it way before commiting myself. If that's not possible I don't take the work.

I admit to liking waterfall myself (it suits the kind of work I do) and if well done by competent people and for certain types of project its the way to go ...

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