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Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

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Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#41

Post by mbrubeck »

GHFigs wrote: post #38
mbrubeck wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case where a W3C member has essential claims that aren't available under W3C royalty-free licensing requirements is treated as an "exception" to W3C policy [1], not an expected part of the normal process. It requires formation of a special committee and is truly disruptive. Apple seems to be one of the only members willing to do it regularly. [1]: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Exc... Wh…

Would it have been less disruptive in May? It's very clear that Apple's participation would have been preferable, but is there any other way this would have gone down even with it? (Your posts have been much more informative than the submission, thank you.)

The outcome of this process is still unknown -- the patents might be found not to apply, or acceptable licensing terms may yet be worked out. But, if not, then we may need to change the specification. That could mean minor tweaks or it could mean developing new APIs from scratch.

If the disclosure came six months earlier, then there's the potential that it could have saved us six months of work writing and implementing specs that might now be abandoned. We could also be well on the way to developing and standardizing the replacement API (if one turned out to be necessary).

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#42

Post by napierzaza »

notatoad wrote: post #25
GHFigs wrote: post #6

Alternate title:"Apple disclosing patents ahead of deadline in accordance with W3C patent policy, again." The sense of malice seems to be inferred from Apple not disclosing these sooner, but I question what the point is of having a deadline if disclosures a month prior to it are going to be considered disruptive. If this was going undermine the process, shouldn't the deadline have been sooner?

The letter of the law is one thing, being a dick is another. It isnt like apple just found these patents under a couch cushion, they knew they had them. They also knew that the w3c and the browser vendors were working on this. They let everybody work on the standard while they planned to throw their legal team at it at the last minute. It doesn't matter what the rules are, apple is acting maliciously here.

Because why? It took time for them to research their patents or prepare the submission? Why are you assuming that everything could have somehow been ready instantly at a moments notice? If they set a deadline they should be happy that Apple abides by it.

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#43

Post by mbrubeck »

adestefan wrote: post #28
notatoad wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The letter of the law is one thing, being a dick is another. It isnt like apple just found these patents under a couch cushion, they knew they had them. They also knew that the w3c and the browser vendors were working on this. They let everybody work on the standard while they planned to throw their legal team at it at the last minute. It doesn't matter what the rules are, apple is acting maliciously here.

It isnt like apple just found these patents under a couch cushion, they knew they had them. You're assuming the people working with the W3C even knew that Apple had these patents. Apple is a big corporation. The people that are working with the W3C probably didn't even look for the patents themselves, it was probably the legal department that finally said, "Oh here's some that might apply."

Apple has refused to join the W3C Web Events WG since it started in October 2010. One of the only benefits they get from not participating is that it's easier for them to exclude patents from licensing requirements. We should assume that Apple's legal team carefully considered the patent issues back when the company was deciding whether to join the working group.

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#44

Post by mbrubeck »

mbr wrote: post #16

I was under the impression that FSF had a collection of patents that have been donated to them. If so, can it really be true that Apple's not violating any of them? Proprietary companies use their patents to blackmail one another into cross-licensing all the time. Although it's offensive, it's how business operates. Why can't FSF do the same for the greater good of fostering the establishment of standards that will b…

Apple is the largest company in the world, or close to it. Even huge companies with big legal teams and patent holdings like Samsung that get into patent battles with Apple risk ending up with court injunctions against selling their products. If the FSF decided to fight a (horribly lopsided) patent war against Apple, the losing scenario could include injunctions and damages against open source developers and users.

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#45

Post by DanBC »

dextorious wrote: post #18
ajross wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It can't be both obvious AND non patented before. " This is so wrong it makes my brain hurt to read it. Even beyond plainly bad logic (you patent every "obvious" idea you have?!) it's contradicted by a continuous stream of "bad patent with prior art" stories on this site and a hundred others. Hell, I see some links to that sort of thing in this very thread. " Why should the public benefit from something Apple inven…

"""Even beyond plainly bad logic (you patent every "obvious" idea you have?!)""" If it's a multi-million making idea, why wouldn't I? (In my case, though, a little Googling reveals that someone else has thought of it first.) You know of many people coming up with ideas like pinch-to-zoom and just throwing them away? ""it's contradicted by a continuous stream of "bad patent with prior art" stories on this site and a h…

> You know of many people coming up with ideas like pinch-to-zoom and just throwing them away?

Minority Report - 2002

iPhone - announced Jan 2007

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#46

Post by dextorious »

ajross wrote: post #39
dextorious wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"""Even beyond plainly bad logic (you patent every "obvious" idea you have?!)""" If it's a multi-million making idea, why wouldn't I? (In my case, though, a little Googling reveals that someone else has thought of it first.) You know of many people coming up with ideas like pinch-to-zoom and just throwing them away? ""it's contradicted by a continuous stream of "bad patent with prior art" stories on this site and a h…

' You're reading it totally backwards. The whole point of the patent system is to PROTECT X invention. ' Don't know where you live, but the constitution of my nation is pretty damn clear that the whole point of the patent system is to "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". I don't see anything in there about "protection". (edit with a little less snark: you're misreading what I said. Patents provide pr…

"""Don't know where you live"""

Half a world away.

"""but the constitution of my nation is pretty damn clear that the whole point of the patent system is to "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". I don't see anything in there about "protection"."""

Yes, because a one line "mission plan" summary totally summarizes the law and how it's used.

"""Patents provide protection as a means to an end. What I was saying is that the goal of the patent system is very much to get inventions into the hands of the public, and into the hands of other inventors who can improve them."""

That goal could be accomplished without the patent system altogether. Just make everything open. That would get inventions to the hands of the public and other inventors even faster.

The actual use of the patent system is to present barriers to the copying of inventions, to allow the one who come up with it to profit.

Now this is supposed to encourage R&D, and thus the party line about "advancement" etc (which is totally secondary and only comes as a side effect of patenting, whereas restriction of copying is the immediate effect).

So, yeah, Apple's attempts are against the abstract principle behind the patent office, but much in line with it's pragmatic use.

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#47

Post by georgemcbay »

dextorious wrote: post #34
mbrubeck wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It can't be both obvious AND non patented before." As long as an obvious idea can be turned into a patent (and they definitely are! remember the swing patent [1]?) then one attempt to patent it has to be the first. Your statement can't be true unless all obvious ideas have somehow been patented since the dawn of time. [1]: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2178-boy-takes-swing-a...

"""Your statement can't be true unless all obvious ideas have somehow been patented since the dawn of time""" Yeah, but I'm not talking "fire" here. The context is ideas that can generate lots of money and companies want to use like crazy. Like pinch-to-zoom. If they claim it's obvious why didn't they implement it in their products first? Why wasn't it part of the web standards from before the iPhone? And why nobody…

pinch-to-zoom is obvious once you have a display capable of multitouch input. The whole reason it works so well is that it is mimicking a real world interaction that is fully intuitive (read: obvious!). Should specific implementations of multitouch input technology be patent-able? Yes. Should pinch-to-zoom and other obvious gestures be patent-able on top of that? Obviously not.

What drives patent applications for things like pinch-to-zoom isn't novelty, but companies with vast legal teams who throw patents against the wall to see what sticks. My name appears on some patent applications. Not because those patents describe things that are novel (because they don't) but because the company I was working for at the time went into a "patent everything" phase. I regret allowing them to even use my name on those applications.

All of this is ultimately the USPTO's fault for basically rubber stamping whatever comes through the door and letting the courts figure it out. Filing clearly stupid patents should come with a penalty akin to frivolous lawsuits, but at this point I doubt the system will ever change, at least until the USA completes its long but accelerating slide into economic irrelevance.

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#48

Post by lincolnwebs »

While I don't condone it, it's easy to understand Apple's reasoning.

The longer they can delay the standardization of touch events, the easier it is for them to maintain dominance in the tablet and phone markets with their UX design & proprietary apps marketplace ("those web apps are harder to use because they don't behave with touch right!").

Of course they don't want a standard yet. They're the ones doing it best and reaping the rewards.

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#49

Post by bzbarsky »

jstepien wrote: post #17

I'm wondering what would be an effect of moving a standardisation organisation to a software-patent-free country. In such case software patent issues wouldn't be any obstacle for the organisation in their standardisation processes. On the other hand, created standards would be useless in countries where technologies covered in the standard had already been patented. As a result, isn't it so that software patents in s…

In this case the standard would be largely implemented by 4 or 5 organizations, all but one of which are based in the US (Mozilla, Opera, Apple, Google, Microsoft, if you count Google and Apple separately).

I can't speak for the validity of the patents involved in Norway or whether Apple could pursue Opera for distributing a browser infringing on their patents in the US. But for the others, the patent situation is very relevant.

So it wouldn't matter if the standard just decided to standardize something that Apple claims patents on, if Microsoft and Mozilla then couldn't implement the standard due to those patents....

Re: Apple using patents to undermine open standards again

#50

Post by haberman »

GHFigs wrote: post #6

Alternate title:"Apple disclosing patents ahead of deadline in accordance with W3C patent policy, again." The sense of malice seems to be inferred from Apple not disclosing these sooner, but I question what the point is of having a deadline if disclosures a month prior to it are going to be considered disruptive. If this was going undermine the process, shouldn't the deadline have been sooner?

Just to offer a condensed version of mbrubeck's detailed information: Apple have played this strategically in the W3C so they could make this patent disclosure as late as possible, despite the fact that they have been shipping these supposedly patented APIs in Safari since 2007 and encouraging developers to use them, and despite the fact that this proposed standard was first published back in May.

The deadline was not sooner only because Apple strategically avoided joining the relevant working group, which would have forced an earlier disclosure.

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