The end of Apple’s affair with China • Hacker News Board

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#121

Post by waynecochran » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #92

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the truth, as in the party wants zero covid. And there is the truth. The party wants to earn money, no matter what. So work is allowed, and ignored, just dont tell Xi and some excessive Covid measures are driven into some unimportant areas for show. The ilusion of a strong state, the same as russias military ..

If you had massive outbreaks at a factory like Foxconn’s largest in Zhengzhou which employs 300,000 people, you would have massive interruptions to production. Instead, they do extensive testing and quarantining to prevent outbreaks at a factory like that. So no, it isn’t “performative zero COVID”.

It would be interesting to speak with a Foxconn employees from that time...

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#122

Post by yalogin » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

The thing with outsourcing is, the vendor will themselves set up shop wherever the customer wants. In this case all the chinese companies are simply setting up plants in India and Vietnam, so they end up not losing any business in the short term. Same thing happens with software. All of the India consulting firms set up shop all over the world, for example Mexico to provide similar time zones to their US customers yet reduce costs. The customer gets to say we are not relying on country X and the vendor still has that contract.

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#123

Post by waynecochran » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #119

waynecochran wrote: post #26

How was Apple able to maintain its production of iPhones in China during the height of Covid-19 in China?

COVID impacted EMS production facilities in the off peak season, so suppliers were able to move production around to different sites to dodge outbreaks. But it did impact production in Spring 2020.

Different sites in China? Was Covid-19 that localized?

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#124

Post by trap_goes_hot » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

traceroute66 wrote: post #99

joezydeco wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about turning a ship 10000x the size of the Titanic. A company like Apple with a CEO that built his career on logistics and production? You can be sure there's a plan. You just aren't allowed to see it.

> A company like Apple with a CEO that built his career on logistics and production? You can be sure there's a plan. You just aren't allowed to see it. This, this and THIS ! Do not underestimate Apple when it comes to supply chain management, they are the kings. Don't believe me ? Look at the COVID-induced semi-conductor shortage. Every other manufacturer out there that relies on a very strict definition of Just-In-T…

Is there any data for this? TBH, It doesn't pass the smell-test for me. Apple has a tiny product range, meanwhile companies like Samsung sell everything from chips, screens, and other components, to phones, laptops, tvs, etc, etc. Or even Dell, which has a massive product range; Our company purchased a ton of hardware from them during covid with no lead time issues - at-least on the things we wanted.

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#125

Post by slaw » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #107

smoldesu wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fourth, if TSMC is unavailable they will spin the production somewhere else. Where? Intel would sell them their fabs, but they don't have a process as advanced as TSMC 5nm. Samsung might be able to compete, but their yields are wickedly low and still slightly behind TSMC. GlobalFoundries might accept Apple as a customer, but then we'd basically have two Qualcomms. What is Apple's plan-b for Taiwan?

Isn't TSMC building outside Taiwan, to your point? https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tsmc-fab-21-arizona

It is only 20000 wafers per month on 5nm. Only 5nm factories in Taiwan make 150000 wafers per month.

https://wccftech.com/tsmc-boosts-5nm-production-to-150000-wa...

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#126

Post by Bakary » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #34

Bakary wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pirate quite a bit but what bothers me about this reasoning is that at the end of the day the goal is to not pay for other people's labor, and the reason it happens is primarily the ease of achieving this rather than the nature of the thing in question. Whether it's specifically called theft or not has significant legal implications, but is also a moot point in an ethical and aesthetic sense.

If it doesn't matterz use the right words.

It's not that the definitions don't matter, just that they aren't invoked in good faith for the most part, or don't take into account the broader situation of stuff needing effort to come into existence.

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#127

Post by etempleton » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

pcurve wrote: post #7

Very insightful. It corrected a lot of incorrect information I had on this issues. 1. Labor cost is an issue but at 530 per month as of 2020 Chinese mfr labor is still relatively cheap and only twice as expensive as India. 2. Sales in China peaked in 2015-6 in terms of percentage of revenue for Apple 3. Despite the move, analysts predict 80% of Apple products will still be made in China by 2025.

I think at one point Steve Jobs had responded to a question on the topic of manufacturing location that the issue with moving manufacturing out of China, and specifically bringing more manufacturing back to the United States, had little to do with the cost of labor and more to do with the logistics networks. Building something as complex as an iPhone at scale and cost is basically impossible to do in the United States or really anywhere else right now.

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#128

Post by philliphaydon » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #96

xadhominemx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bulk of the parts are not coming from China. Maybe some very commodity assembly and back end steps. But the vast majority of the manufacturing value add happens in Taiwan (semiconductors) and Korea (display).

iPhone displays are also made in China by BOE. They were also intending to use YMTC for NAND but didn't because of political pressure.

Some* are made by BOE. Not enough for Apple to care. 100% of iPhone 14 Pro/Max are made by Samsung.

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#129

Post by qikInNdOutReply » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #92

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is the truth, as in the party wants zero covid. And there is the truth. The party wants to earn money, no matter what. So work is allowed, and ignored, just dont tell Xi and some excessive Covid measures are driven into some unimportant areas for show. The ilusion of a strong state, the same as russias military ..

If you had massive outbreaks at a factory like Foxconn’s largest in Zhengzhou which employs 300,000 people, you would have massive interruptions to production. Instead, they do extensive testing and quarantining to prevent outbreaks at a factory like that. So no, it isn’t “performative zero COVID”.

Most of the workers who work at these factorys are young and fit, and they life and eat on site. So as so often in china, local tax inspector in company inspects shipment, local covid expert certifies zero covid.

Every once and a while a higher up arrives. Before that happens, the workers are checked for covid, some are quarantined and the rest is for a few weeks actually covid free. After the visit nobody cares..

Re: The end of Apple’s affair with China

#130

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #74

hunterb123 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PRC constantly skirmishes with India and has land grabbed many islands in the South China Sea, many already occupied. Yes, since and during the communist takeover of China, all of its military might has generally been directed inwards at it's own people, but they are still a military force and are well organized. I'd equate the current period of the PRC to the Soviet arms build up of the Cold War.

Yes they have a large and considerably upgraded military, but border skirmishes and planting flags on unpopulated rocks are hardly comparable to Russia’s recent post-Cold War military experience. The point is how the PLA would fare in an actual war is far from known yet. As far as the Soviet military went, the fallout of that buildup, and the actual condition of the Red Army, are known after the fact now.

> Yes they have a large and considerably upgraded military, but border skirmishes and planting flags on unpopulated rocks are hardly comparable to Russia’s recent post-Cold War military experience.

Skirmishing against a near-peer like India is probably better preparation for a large scale war against a well-financed enemy with modern equipment, doctrine, and Western support than Russia’s wars against lesser former Soviet states and in support of Syria.