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The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

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41–50 of 178 posts

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#41

This is great. We’ve been chatting with Docker for a little bit (I’m Syrus, from Wasmer) and it’s great to see that they are making progress on improving the developer experience around WebAssembly. However, I see Docker (and thus, Kubernetes) is as technologies of the past (I don’t intend to start any flamewar, I really believe this by heart). Metal compute (Web 1.0) lead to VMs which then lead to Containers (Web 2.…

Solomon Hykes, the father of Docker agrees: https://twitter.com/solomonstre/status/1111004913222324225?s...

the tweet is from 2019

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on which "this" you're referring to. We (Docker) are trying to make it easier for developers to use the tools and capabilities they know and love to build, share, and run Wasm applications. As far as Wasm itself, it's designed to provide a fast, lightweight, secure, and portable binary format. While it was originally designed to help bring native code to the browser, it's quickly spreading to the server side.…

I didn't get anything from that. My question was not about WASM but Docker+WASM project. Why problem does it solve?

the only thing I see is that after wrapping wasm inside a docker you can leverage all those docker tools(k8n,etc)? the docker solves portability and scalability issues with a reasonable overhead, so wasm hides inside docker can benefit from some?

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#43
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What problem is this solving?

Depends on which "this" you're referring to. We (Docker) are trying to make it easier for developers to use the tools and capabilities they know and love to build, share, and run Wasm applications. As far as Wasm itself, it's designed to provide a fast, lightweight, secure, and portable binary format. While it was originally designed to help bring native code to the browser, it's quickly spreading to the server side.…

I'm honestly really confused about the specific role docker is playing here.

What, exactly, is Docker doing? Is it compiling the application? Is it making a runtime for the wasm binary? Is it being the runtime for the wasm binary, so the end user builds through whatever usual build processes and gets a binary they can then easily run?

If the wasm binary is lightweight and portable, why is docker useful?

edit: Given the other comments about "what problem does this solve" I think maybe the blog post has missed its mark slightly

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly, we agree. The goal of this Technical Preview is not to encourage Wasm to be mediated by containers in production, but rather to enable people to locally build & package Wasm apps easily. In production, that could look like a number of different scenarios, from "bare metal" edge (just running in a Wasm VM), to running your Wasm workloads in a nomad/k8s cluster if that’s what you need (e.g. if you want hybrid…

Hey Tim, I appreciate your willingness to engage. What I'm getting at is a bit more pointed. In terms of composability, Docker and WASM are opposites: Docker requires a stand-alone runtime, and an orchestration layer, etc., whereas a WASM module & runtime can be embedded directly into my application, into a browser, or into (comparatively) simple, time-tested tools like Apache[0]. So, to your point, the opportunity h…

No disagreement here! Just to contextualize: Docker — the company as it exists today — is singularly focused on the development experience, i.e. the inner loop of code/test/build, not the outer loop of deploying to production (which is largely controlled by cloud platforms and k8s at this point). I know that separation can seem arbitrary, considering containers are largely successful because they help bridge the two, but that’s just the reality of what we’re focused on in our daily jobs @ Docker.

Within that framework, we see Wasm as extremely compatible with our goals of improving the local development experience, and yes, giving people alternatives to container-centric approaches. I’m personally inclined to agree with the points you are making about opportunities in orchestration, but we’re starting today by just trying to give people to a solid toolset that lets you iterate on your Wasm apps locally, and easily export the resulting artifacts, so you can deploy them as you see fit. In the process we try to be careful about shedding any container-centric assumptions, while porting over some of the wins of the docker tooling that we think can translate well to Wasm (easy local dev environment, standard artifacts, broad platform compatibility across Windows/Linux/M1, etc.) We will happily work with anyone interested in working with us to improve the production/deployment landscape for Wasm, and in fact I would say the main reason that drove us to launch this technical preview today, was to attract feedback on how the Wasm community (ourselves included) could best deliver an alternative path to production for applications going forward.

Hope this makes sense and that I understood your point accurately!

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#46

This is great. We’ve been chatting with Docker for a little bit (I’m Syrus, from Wasmer) and it’s great to see that they are making progress on improving the developer experience around WebAssembly. However, I see Docker (and thus, Kubernetes) is as technologies of the past (I don’t intend to start any flamewar, I really believe this by heart). Metal compute (Web 1.0) lead to VMs which then lead to Containers (Web 2.…

I don't know Syrus nor Wasmer :)

However, I'm genuinely interested - why would this make Kubernetes obsolete? If Wasm rules the future, as you believe, why shouldn't it run in a pod?

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#47

This is great. We’ve been chatting with Docker for a little bit (I’m Syrus, from Wasmer) and it’s great to see that they are making progress on improving the developer experience around WebAssembly. However, I see Docker (and thus, Kubernetes) is as technologies of the past (I don’t intend to start any flamewar, I really believe this by heart). Metal compute (Web 1.0) lead to VMs which then lead to Containers (Web 2.…

Long live Wasm indeed! Obviously we feel a bit differently about Docker and k8s being in the past — Docker is used by 68% of professional developers according to the latest SO survey[0], and k8s is still growing in popularity at 28%. But obviously the technology landscape changes rapidly, and maybe one day (we hope) Wasm will be at 28%, 68% or higher. We’re frankly just excited about the possibilities, and wanted to help along the way :)

[0]: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technolog...

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#48
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just want to protect the frontend from the C#/Java crowd.

No chance, we're already compiling those to our wasm-based frontend apps

You can run Java in the browser now but at least you can't touch DOM...

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#49
post #46

This is great. We’ve been chatting with Docker for a little bit (I’m Syrus, from Wasmer) and it’s great to see that they are making progress on improving the developer experience around WebAssembly. However, I see Docker (and thus, Kubernetes) is as technologies of the past (I don’t intend to start any flamewar, I really believe this by heart). Metal compute (Web 1.0) lead to VMs which then lead to Containers (Web 2.…

I don't know Syrus nor Wasmer :) However, I'm genuinely interested - why would this make Kubernetes obsolete? If Wasm rules the future, as you believe, why shouldn't it run in a pod?

Here are some of the thoughts behind my reasoning that I posted previously in HN. Hope the are insightful!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27158187

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26271806

Re: The Docker+WASM Technical Preview

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I want to compile my app to WASM if it's not running in a browser?

Great question! The promise (and excitement) of Wasm is to have portable, secure, quick-to-start, and low resource usage apps. So, write code in Go, Rust, C++, or any other language that can output to Wasm (up to over 40 now!) and you're good to go! The binaries are super small too. Happy to dive in more too!

A majority of software already does this. WASM seems more like a direct attempt to run binary blobs and to simply "trust" the intrusive binary sandbox while leaking all kinds of information when trustworthy sandbox solutions and multi architecture compilation are nothing new and not a new problem that needs solving. It seems if anything the problem people are trying to solve with WASM is how to get people enthusiastic about handing over more privacy.
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