Earlier quoted context omitted.
You made a statement that clearly begged the question, and now I see that you’ve made this comment twice to try and stop further discussion and examination of your claims, and yet I see a perfectly fine and interesting discussion has continued below and hasn’t devolved at all. Might be time to check more than one of your assumptions, but more importantly, stop trying to police what I and others here say. I’m an adult…
I never said not to have the discussion. I said it would devolve, and look at what we’re already discussing.
Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
581–590 of 602 posts
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#582Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never said not to have the discussion. I said it would devolve, and look at what we’re already discussing.
I pointed out that it hasn't devolved. If you think people calmly and rationally discussing and disagreeing with your assumptions and claims is devolution then you have a further claim to back up.
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#583Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#584Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#585Earlier quoted context omitted.
I pointed out that it hasn't devolved. If you think people calmly and rationally discussing and disagreeing with your assumptions and claims is devolution then you have a further claim to back up.
Go read what you wrote about policing and other stuff. It was demeaning and clearly not my intent. Apparently you’re an adult, so yes, have whatever discussion you like. I’m just saying I won’t be apart of it, unless you plan to force me.
“unless you plan to force me.” Jesus wept.
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#586Why even pretend that admission is in some sense "fair"? I don't mean this as a "anti-woke" or "pro-woke" harangue, or as a middle school cynical pose. Admission in the USA is a manual and largely arbitrary process. Just like judges' rulings, it's influenced by which person happened to read the application, what they had for breakfast and what time of day it is. Plus random factors like the orchestra's french horn pl…
Why would removing the “common application” remove heartache? I’m not familiar with that idea.
In addition, the common app really restricts what you can say. For example two kids might have earned an Eagle Scout rank: one just did the minimum to get a check box; the other might have really used it to learn and develop. In the common app there isn't really room to differentiate unless you devote your essay to it.
Back when each school had a unique application, the burden of applying makes you more judicious in your choices. However it also allowed you to adapt your application to what you wanted to emphasize to each school.
For a quantifiable difference: back when I was applying to universities in the 1980s, MIT had quite a high acceptance rate compared to its peers, ~18% IIRC. Why? Turns out few people applied because they (probably correctly) assumed they wouldn't get in anyway.
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#587The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#588Earlier quoted context omitted.
> when the working conditions and compensation are such that staffing education at all is a massive struggle, let alone being selective Of course. And that needs to change. Right? However, this should not be a freebie. Pay more? Absolutely. And, with that, comes a require for excellence and performance that should be no different from any job where, if you don't perform, you are out looking for work elsewhere. > I'm…
> This is crazy. I teach in a private school and the school resources my programs well, and I'm willing to kick in whatever else is needed. I chose the "crazy" because it's a better way. https://github.com/mlyle/armtrainer Most of the course was pencil-and-paper and the special computers come out at the end. If you choose to let the students get their 1 to 1 laptops out, there's a million additional distractions you…
Understood. I do know teachers who are, objectively speaking, just terrible. Like the teacher who, years ago, was "teaching" a Lego robotics class. My kid told me she would come into the room, take out her magazines and tell the kids to do whatever they wanted. My kid ended up teaching the others, she did nothing all year.
When I characterize things as "bad" I am thinking about what I will call the system rather than, for the most part, individuals. Few people are motivated --in any profession-- to push hard and excel without a process, structure and stimulus that drives them there. The colloquial term is "self starters". Most are not self-starters, that's just normal and independent of profession. Add a unionized system within which a genuinely bad teacher can "hide" and be protected for decades and you have the makings of bad educational outcomes.
You seem to be the kind of teacher we should strive to have at every school. Your students are lucky to have you. As a kid I attended both private and public schools (about the same number of years each) and I know the difference. My argument is our public schools should be far better than they are and, perhaps, even better than anything private schools could deliver. For one thing, they have the financial backing of an entire nation. The only reason they are not is that our policies and focus are wrong.
I come down hard on unions, not out of spite or ideology but rather out of experience. I was a member of a union for about ten years when I was in my 20's. I saw the sausage being made. Unions had every reason to exist back in the day. It is my opinion that, in a wide range of industries (maybe not all) unions are horrible beasts that exist for the benefit of the wrong people. This is to say, their management. Union members are not the problem. They are average folk who just want a good life and everything anyone else would want. Unions, however, are driven into creating the problems they do because their mission isn't aligned with the outcomes of what it is they affect; in this case, educational outcomes.
Getting off that subject, I was a mentor for our local FRC team for many years. We got to Nationals a couple of times.
While not a teacher, I am pretty good at teaching complex subjects in ways that make them accessible. Well, at least that's the feedback from my own kids and FRC team members. I very much understand you don't need a lot of stuff to teach. It can get in the way.
I absolutely love working with kids. I would hate to be under the thumb of a system that did not allow me to help them excel (in real terms, not just pass tests).
Regarding your microprocessor trainer. You'll appreciate this. I own a couple of these:
https://i.imgur.com/ZsIJj1p.png
I am of the 8080, 6502, MC6800 era. I actually owned an IMSAI and such things as a real DEC VT100 terminal.
I used the 8085 trainer to teach my kids assembler and show them how things work at the base level. They had a lot of fun with it.
I've been thinking of doing a series on YouTube that goes from basic gates and logic through actually building a small microprocessor and defining your own assembler instructions. From there I would implement Forth, move on to programming block-based storage, write a text/code editor and then implement a few interesting higher-level projects. I know this would be a lot of fun to do (at least for me). It's a question of time. I might be able to jump on this in a few months. It's one of those things that's been in the back of my mind for, quite literally, years.
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#589Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This is crazy. I teach in a private school and the school resources my programs well, and I'm willing to kick in whatever else is needed. I chose the "crazy" because it's a better way. https://github.com/mlyle/armtrainer Most of the course was pencil-and-paper and the special computers come out at the end. If you choose to let the students get their 1 to 1 laptops out, there's a million additional distractions you…
> Don't mistake not being welcomed with open arms for the teacher being "bad". In many public schools, there's a whole lot of heavy management on hitting specific test goals and curriculum items. Your offer would likely not help the teacher in this task. Understood. I do know teachers who are, objectively speaking, just terrible. Like the teacher who, years ago, was "teaching" a Lego robotics class. My kid told me sh…
The real dirty secret is that schooling is an adverse selection problem. Private schools usually spend far less per student, but can be selective behaviorally and in learning capability. Further, parents who are willing to spend for "better" education are a far different cohort than those who are not.
I'm able to teach undergrad material to MS students, because they come in primed to learn, without many substantial behavioral problems. All of the resources can go to top-end programs, because there's no need to provide services to students with learning disabilities 1:1. Etc.
Even with more resources, as long as we're going to insist on mainstreaming students with behavioral problems or who just don't care about the educational process, outcomes for the other students in the rooms are going to be affected. Indeed, the direction of policy change is to make many of these things worse, with increased mainstreaming and reduction of tracking for equity reasons.
> I come down hard on unions
IMO, unions are part of the problem, but really mostly a symptom of it. We have terrible administrative systems, terrible societal expectations for teachers, and unions are seen as a necessary response to make the job halfway survivable (but end up perpetuating the worst parts of the system in the process).
I think we need to accept:
- Education will take more resources than are currently given.
- Education can not fix equity issues: lack of parental support is a powerful disadvantage that we cannot expect a classroom teacher to overcome.
- Differentiated experiences, magnet schools, tracking, behavioral selectivity for classroom environments, etc, are necessary to get the best outcomes for top students and acceptable outcomes for students with problems.
> I used the 8085 trainer to teach my kids assembler and show them how things work at the base level.
Computers are more accessible now. But the terrible thing is there's not a really good onramp to figuring out how things work anymore. I try and get students to tinker, and they're not really used to it in the way 70s and 80s kids were.
> I've been thinking of doing a series on YouTube that goes from basic gates and logic through actually building a small microprocessor
This was basically what we did in my Comp Org & Design class, though after we got the "gist" of our own processor with registers, an ALU, flags, and a skeleton of control logic we pretty much hand-waved it and pivoted to ARM THUMB. We didn't do any of the higher level stuff. We didn't get to any higher level stuff (didn't even really reach procedure calls for most students-- lots of spaghetti code of branches everywhere).
I've been thinking about teaching a Verilog + microprocessor design class in our high school. It's a challenge, though, because our high school is relatively small. I also seem to have a bit less success getting HS students to really stretch in the way middle school students do in my classroom-- in part because there's so much other academic weight for high school students to carry.
(Unfortunately, parents want this academic pressure and "rigor" even though it is often counterproductive to the best learning).
Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students
#590Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Don't mistake not being welcomed with open arms for the teacher being "bad". In many public schools, there's a whole lot of heavy management on hitting specific test goals and curriculum items. Your offer would likely not help the teacher in this task. Understood. I do know teachers who are, objectively speaking, just terrible. Like the teacher who, years ago, was "teaching" a Lego robotics class. My kid told me sh…
> The only reason they are not is that our policies and focus are wrong. The real dirty secret is that schooling is an adverse selection problem. Private schools usually spend far less per student, but can be selective behaviorally and in learning capability. Further, parents who are willing to spend for "better" education are a far different cohort than those who are not. I'm able to teach undergrad material to MS s…
> Even with more resources, as long as we're going to insist on mainstreaming students with behavioral problems or who just don't care about the educational process, outcomes for the other students in the rooms are going to be affected.
The insistence on equality at all levels and all things is a problem. I know there are people reading this comment thinking "this guy is a bigot". If you are that person, please stop, calm down and think.
Everyone understands that there are people who will never been competitive swimmers, basketball players or good dancers. While I am not terrible at sports, I could not become one of those three, no matter what I do. One of my kids will never be an artists. Just not interested, at all. Another cannot think about anything else. Why is it that we want to shove everyone into the same mold when it comes to intellectual capacity, IQ, etc.? Should I force one of my kids into art class and the other into engineering? No. That would be insane.
We don't all have to be engineers. It would be a really sad planet if that were the case. It is not bigoted to suggest we need to allow kids to excel at what really drives them. Expose them to a range of topics, of course. Don't torture them by forcing them into a mold. Should a kid who is an artist not graduate high school if they don't pass algebra, physics and calculus? Why?
I love this Ted talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY
The whole thing is interesting, however the story that starts about 15 minutes in speaks loudly to this matter of treating all kids as if they were clones of some made-up model of humanity. I won't spoil it for those who might not have seen it. Watch this and think about what we are doing to our kids in school.
> who just don't care about the educational process
I don't know enough about this. I wish I understood it better. My uninformed thinking is that we damage both groups of kids by forcing them together. One of my kids had to ask to be moved to a desk at the front of the class because the kids in the back were not interested in the class at all and made it impossible to pay attention and learn. The uninterested group should not be discarded. They need a different focus and help. If their families can't support them, perhaps better programs can. I revert back to this idea that not everyone in K-12 is, or should be, college-bound. That's an unnecessary model that might just be causing more damage than good.
Of course, this has policy implications that transcend schools. There has to be opportunity outside of college-centric careers for that large percentage of non-college-bound students to be able to access middle-class living. This perspective, if accurate, results in many tentacles affecting wider policy and politics. In other words, it isn't just about schools and the policies that control them.
> Education can not fix equity issues: lack of parental support is a powerful disadvantage that we cannot expect a classroom teacher to overcome
Maybe I am being naïve. My thinking is, if, a big "if", we could "fix" --whatever that might mean-- the system for one generation, maybe two, the parental problem might self-regulate over time. Sadly, there are kids who are in a really bad environment. Can we address that as a society? Equal outcomes are a fantasy. That does not mean we don't try. I would gladly devote half or more of our war-machine budget towards a better educational system and better outcomes. For that to happen humanity needs to change. None of these things are simple. Easy to throw around grandiose ideas. Hard to make them happen. Also, very easy to throw your hands up and give up when nobody seems to care (as I have done locally).
> I've been thinking about teaching a Verilog + microprocessor design class in our high school.
I've done tons of work with FPGA's. They are great. My fear, when it comes with using them as a teaching tool at that level, is that the student could suffer from exactly the same problem they have when they learn Python as their first language: Everything is magic. I could be wrong. Perhaps it is because of the fact that I came up wiring raw gates together on breadboards that I feel getting down to that baseline has greater value than instantiating an entire circuit with half a dozen lines of code.
Here's a thought I had for yet another attempt to help our local schools with STEM. There are so many well executed resources out there that one could create a hybrid program based on using them under supervision.
My example of this is having my own kids take the MITx 6.00.1 and 6.00.2 courses on edX under my guidance and supervision. This was a lot of work, yet, a lot easier than coming-up with a full curriculum and coursework from scratch. I could see taking this kind of an approach with HS kids to teach a CS class or two. They would get to boast about earning CS certificates from MIT, which I would hope would me motivating enough.