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Rails Is Not For Beginners

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Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#71

Post by jeltz »

mnutt wrote: post #10
bad_user wrote: post #5

I have a harder time using Sinatra because I never know where to put things. Also, the biggest problem with learning Rails is the Ruby language. After you learn the language, switching from Sinatra to Rails and back is not problematic.

Yeah, Rails gives beginners a big advantage by generating a huge scaffolding. It clears up a lot of ambiguities about where things go, and as a beginner it lets you explore different things that you can do in Rails.

I guess everyone is different since scaffolding always scared me when I was a beginner. It felt like entering an existing code base not knowing where things should go and what you are allowed to edit, except unlike a real code base none of the functionality is there making it even harder to figure out where to put things.

I have always preferred to start simple and localized and add complexity as the project goes. Especially when I am learning something new.

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#72

Post by gmichnikov »

dhh wrote: post #29
dhh wrote: post #27

If you optimize a framework for beginners, you're optimizing for learnability. That's great for the first few days or even weeks of learning. But once you're past that, it's not so great. What you care more about is the usability of the thing once you know it. There are plenty of cases where learnability and usability are in conflict. Letting learnability win is a short-term relief. If you on the other hand optimize…

On top of that, I actually talk to beginners all the time who are thrilled with the ease of learning Rails. They're building real apps they never thought they could complete on their own. Naturally, there's some selection bias there (most people who give up are unlikely to write), but that doesn't change the joy for the people who did have a great and easy time.

I apologize if you've addressed this elsewhere, but do you have any specific suggestions beyond http://guides.rubyonrails.org/ for a beginner (who knows basic HTML/CSS but not much else) trying to learn Rails?

I've been using RailsTutorial, and while it's packed with info, I feel like I would benefit from a more solid understanding of many of the basics.

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#73

Post by dhh »

gmichnikov wrote: post #72
dhh wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, I actually talk to beginners all the time who are thrilled with the ease of learning Rails. They're building real apps they never thought they could complete on their own. Naturally, there's some selection bias there (most people who give up are unlikely to write), but that doesn't change the joy for the people who did have a great and easy time.

I apologize if you've addressed this elsewhere, but do you have any specific suggestions beyond http://guides.rubyonrails.org/ for a beginner (who knows basic HTML/CSS but not much else) trying to learn Rails? I've been using RailsTutorial, and while it's packed with info, I feel like I would benefit from a more solid understanding of many of the basics.

I've heard great things about http://railsforzombies.com/ and of course a good book, like http://pragprog.com/book/rails4/agile-web-development-with-r....

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#75

Post by tmroyal »

I am a beginner. I am trying to learn Rails. I am finding it difficult because the tutorials tend to be walkthroughs of creating very specific types of web apps, with understanding of the concepts being offered a side effect. I often have questions about why and wherefore of certain decisions tutorial authors make. My only recourse is the documentation, which is too large for me to maintain my excitement for too long, especially with my busy schedule.

I do not get excited about the sudden ability to make things because I have been making things (not webapps) for some time.

I have had much more success learning Sinatra. While the tutorials are similarly designed, the reduced reliance of magic makes it easier for me understand the purpose of the commands given. There are no files that are generated for me in places that I have to go looking for that do something important that I don't have to think about (but I do have to understand.) In fact, Sinatra has helped me to understand Rails in hindsight.

I think the issue is that the tutorials I have looked at tend to be trying to sell Rails as an awesome tool to make things. This has emphasized ease of use over understanding of concepts. You can contrast these tutorials with books or tutorials for any programming language. Books on programming languages tend to be more abstract and while they limit one's power at first, they enhance one's awareness in the end. Tutorials on Rails do the opposite for me.

Maybe I should have just bought a book on Rails (like the tutorials said.)

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#76

Post by berberous »

dhh wrote: post #73
gmichnikov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize if you've addressed this elsewhere, but do you have any specific suggestions beyond http://guides.rubyonrails.org/ for a beginner (who knows basic HTML/CSS but not much else) trying to learn Rails? I've been using RailsTutorial, and while it's packed with info, I feel like I would benefit from a more solid understanding of many of the basics.

I've heard great things about http://railsforzombies.com/ and of course a good book, like http://pragprog.com/book/rails4/agile-web-development-with-r... .

Going to have to disagree; railsforzombies is so thin on information, I don't really feel like it's worth the time. Then again, it takes only like 20-30 minutes. So go for it I guess.

I've found this to be an AWESOME resource:

http://openclassroom.stanford.edu/MainFolder/CoursePage.php?...

It's a full Stanford class of lecture videos. It really solidified my understanding of the concepts I learned from Hartl's tutorial.

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#77

Post by Soleone »

berberous wrote: post #76
dhh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard great things about http://railsforzombies.com/ and of course a good book, like http://pragprog.com/book/rails4/agile-web-development-with-r... .

Going to have to disagree; railsforzombies is so thin on information, I don't really feel like it's worth the time. Then again, it takes only like 20-30 minutes. So go for it I guess. I've found this to be an AWESOME resource: http://openclassroom.stanford.edu/MainFolder/CoursePage.php?... It's a full Stanford class of lecture videos. It really solidified my understanding of the concepts I learned from Hartl's tutori…

Wow, thanks so much, this looks like an amazing resource indeed!

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#78

Post by hisea »

dhh wrote: post #27

If you optimize a framework for beginners, you're optimizing for learnability. That's great for the first few days or even weeks of learning. But once you're past that, it's not so great. What you care more about is the usability of the thing once you know it. There are plenty of cases where learnability and usability are in conflict. Letting learnability win is a short-term relief. If you on the other hand optimize…

Rails is not for beginners.

A MD is not for beginners either. Policing is not for beginners either. Even cooking is not for beginners.

I had my first son 9 month ago before I learned how to change a diaper. Being a Dad is definitely not for beginners.

Life is not easy, nothing is for beginners.

People just learn along the way if they think this is the skill they need to learn and they have a strong will.

The most important thing is to BEGIN.

Re: Rails Is Not For Beginners

#79

Post by SomeOtherGuy »

ericb wrote: post #67
SomeOtherGuy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never was for beginners. All those problems have been around since the web has, and beginners have been making insecure crap ever since the first perl cgis.

Perhaps I'm dating myself a bit here, but there was a time when there was no such thing as an "e-commerce app" and no wi-fi to eavesdrop on. Black hat hacking has evolved also, so although some techniques have always been possible, new vectors have opened up over time as they are discovered and disseminated, and I would suggest the corresponding knowledge burden needed to enter the arms race for a developer is higher…

Of course there was a time before ecommerce apps. That would probably explain why I was talking about the very first perl cgis. While there's a lower barrier to entry for people to exploit security holes, there's also far more targets. Automated tools to go around exploiting the latest holes in "insert shitty PHP app here" aren't an issue for web developers who are writing their own apps. The security issues that impact web developers are the same as they have always been for all kinds of developers, input filtering, escaping output, etc. Web developers have always needed to understand basic security issues, it is just that 99% of web developers historically have been completely incompetent. This does not appear to have changed recently.
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