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Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

quantamagazine.org

281–290 of 306 posts

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#281
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that a probabilistic world enables free will in a way that a deterministic one doesn't still confuses me. A coin I flip isn't exercising free will.

Could free will be explained as super-physical phenomena that "haunts" the physical world, w/ choice manifest as which of the branching many worlds' paths consciousness "chooses" to experience? E.g., I am in some universe taking every possible action right now, but I'm only experiencing the actions which I "chose" to take.

What is the point of such a theory besides trying to relieve us from the uncomfortable idea of many worlds? It is no better at explaining our perceived world than the simpler theory that consciousness exists across all these states and we aren't following some particular path through them. All states of conscious existence are being perceived and the perception of it being a coherent path through time is just an illusion created by memory and the similarity of adjacent states.

Furthermore it still removes any actual willed choice of path within the context of our existence. I am not some meta-entity seeing all possible paths and choosing one for some unknown reason. That would be an existential alien "haunting" me and not "free will".

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this different from CI but with probability of observing given state - which was also determined empirically? It's not different, that's the point. For both interpretations, the relationship between the probability of observing a certain outcome and the amplitude of that outcome in the wave function are an extra postulate, the exact same extra postulate in fact, the Born rule. > The worlds and their number a…

> The measurement apparatus as a separate thing from the quantum system was actually partially explained by decoherence I disagree that the decoherence at all partially explains a different measurement apparatus separate from the system. After observation, we still have the the system is in a superposition of multiple states. How this system "collapses" to one state in the measurement apparatus is unexplained. Decohe…

> Decoherence explains why each state of the observer can't tell that the other states also exist.

Sure, but, again, decoherence doesn't explain (1) why the wave function is split in the classical states (position, momentum etc.) and not other states (linear combinations of position and momentum and spin etc.); and (2) doesn't explain why different states have the precise probabilities of being observed that they do. You still need to postulate these features.

> Sure, except we have to invent an entirely new non-unitary transformation of "collapse" despite all observations and predictions of quantum mechanics showing that unitary evolution of the wavefunction continues even for large macro-scale objects.

You're confusing the map for the territory. What we can see, plain as day, is that unitary evolution of the wavefunction does not continue for macro-scale objects. MWI explains this through the framework of the universal wavefunction and its mutually un-interacting "branches", CI explains it through wavefunction collapse. No one has ever successfully put a macroscopic object in superposition, so the idea that the universe itself could be in superposition remains highly theoretical at best.

Note also that movement in the classical world (and in GR) is often highly non-linear/non-unitary (such as the movement of a free pendulum, or many kinds of orbits). While far from perfect for this, the Born rule at least allows us to "sneak in" non-unitary evolution through this collapse; but, in the MWI, we predict that the movement of a free pendulum should in fact be non-chaotic. This is rarely discussed, but is an interesting observation that could be experimentally tested as we get better at creating larger and larger systems that remain coherent for longer and longer periods of time.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#283
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how relabelling "collapse" to "separation" and adding more or less infinitely proliferating universes solves the problem. MWI isn't just renaming the collapse. Copenhagen is fundamentally different in that exactly one outcome is somehow chosen / selected and all others cease to exist. In other words Copenhagen has to add / invent some information: Which world to pick and when to do so. MWI simply avoids…

> Copenhagen is fundamentally different in that exactly one outcome is somehow chosen / selected and all others cease to exist. In MWI exactly one outcome / branch is somehow what we see and all others cease to exist to us. MWI just gives handwavy answers about how it is so.

We are seeing all the other outcomes and branches too, we just aren't aware of it since those are separate universes.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The measurement apparatus as a separate thing from the quantum system was actually partially explained by decoherence I disagree that the decoherence at all partially explains a different measurement apparatus separate from the system. After observation, we still have the the system is in a superposition of multiple states. How this system "collapses" to one state in the measurement apparatus is unexplained. Decohe…

> Decoherence explains why each state of the observer can't tell that the other states also exist. Sure, but, again, decoherence doesn't explain (1) why the wave function is split in the classical states (position, momentum etc.) and not other states (linear combinations of position and momentum and spin etc.); and (2) doesn't explain why different states have the precise probabilities of being observed that they do.…

> Sure, but, again, decoherence doesn't explain (1) why the wave function is split in the classical states (position, momentum etc.) and not other states (linear combinations of position and momentum and spin etc.); and (2) doesn't explain why different states have the precise probabilities of being observed that they do. You still need to postulate these features.

I agree that (1) is a strong objection that I do not have an easy solution to. (2) I think is addressable in the same way that it is in CI - our theory has to explain our observed experience and the born rule (whether CI-flavored or MWI-flavored) is how we do so.

> No one has ever successfully put a macroscopic object in superposition

But getting larger and larger. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-019-0663-9

Thanks for an informative discussion!

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You end up in all branches and your consciousness ends up in all branches, where your mind works. MWI works best with physicalism, yep :) Maybe your copy in another branch even posted the same comment.

But how does bifurcation of consciousness happen and how does it diagonalize the state so that we never see a cat in a complex linear superposition of |alive> and |dead> at the same time? 1/sqrt(2) |alive> + 1/sqrt(2) |dead> should be an equally valid outcome of the experiment via purely unitary evolution.

Consciousness is not a thing that gets bifurcated. It is just a word for an information state that is aware. If you create two information states, you have two awareness states. That is not bifurcation any more than copying a movie and editing one pixel on one frame (or as a better analogy having an effectively infinite number of frames with every possible pixel combination some of which describe aware states).

I don't see how that would allow or require seeing a cat in a complex linear superposition. You just have one set of frames which describe a live cat and another set of frames that describe a dead cat.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Decoherence explains why each state of the observer can't tell that the other states also exist. Sure, but, again, decoherence doesn't explain (1) why the wave function is split in the classical states (position, momentum etc.) and not other states (linear combinations of position and momentum and spin etc.); and (2) doesn't explain why different states have the precise probabilities of being observed that they do.…

> Sure, but, again, decoherence doesn't explain (1) why the wave function is split in the classical states (position, momentum etc.) and not other states (linear combinations of position and momentum and spin etc.); and (2) doesn't explain why different states have the precise probabilities of being observed that they do. You still need to postulate these features. I agree that (1) is a strong objection that I do not…

> (2) I think is addressable in the same way that it is in CI - our theory has to explain our observed experience and the born rule (whether CI-flavored or MWI-flavored) is how we do so.

Absolutely, but I would still say that it means we are adding an extra postulate that can't be derived directly from the Schrodinger equation even in MWI. I'm not trying to claim that the MWI is wrong: just that it is not simpler than the CI (nor it is more complex though - I'm arguing it has the same number of postulates).

> But getting larger and larger.

Sure, and I'm really hoping we'll advance closer to macroscopic objects in my lifetime, so maybe some of these questions may be elucidated.

> Thanks for an informative discussion!

Thank you as well!

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broad statements, do you have the time to elaborate?

The Milky Way and other similar galaxies look like spiral drawn in a thick 2D disk. The dark matter halo looks like an invisible 3D ball around the thick 2D disk. Something like https://www.google.com/search?q=dark+matter+halo&tbm=isch

I thought that the main mechanism that produces the 2D disk of matter in galaxies was gravity, and that dark matter is equally affected by gravity as normal matter? What is the prevailing theory as to why dark matter accretion around galaxies is different from normal matter?

(edit: to answer my own question, the rabbit hole starts here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/485214/ -- basically, accretion happens because light matter can radiate and shed its (kinetic) energy that way. Dark matter does not radiate so it remains in a higher-energy state)

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though it's extremely controversial and taboo because of its implications on free will Uhh, no. Essentially all existing physical theories are devastating for any non-compatabilist account of free will.

I get the impression that physicists who advocate “superdeterminism” are ignorant of the philosophical literature on “determinism” - because from a philosophical viewpoint, there is nothing “super-“ about their position, it is just plain old “determinism”.

Advocates of superdeterminism aren't always in favour of the term. Its most notable advocate, Hossenfelder, disapproves of the term, believing it to be misleading. She suggests the term 'implicate order' (crediting Bohm) be used instead.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#289
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could free will be explained as super-physical phenomena that "haunts" the physical world, w/ choice manifest as which of the branching many worlds' paths consciousness "chooses" to experience? E.g., I am in some universe taking every possible action right now, but I'm only experiencing the actions which I "chose" to take.

What is the point of such a theory besides trying to relieve us from the uncomfortable idea of many worlds? It is no better at explaining our perceived world than the simpler theory that consciousness exists across all these states and we aren't following some particular path through them. All states of conscious existence are being perceived and the perception of it being a coherent path through time is just an illu…

I am trying the reconcile the feeling of free-will we experience with its evident absence, per the theory.

(Of course, you could also just say the feeling is an illusion.)

I don't know if you can ever answer it one way or the other, because while consciousness certainly exists (again a fact I believe just because I feel it), it can't in any way influence the universe, at least per current theories of physics.

On the other hand, if you're right that many-worlds is real and our consciousness persists in all of them, then we will, individually, come to realize that is the case, as find ourselves still alive, forever, ever more improbably (since, I think, the odds of dying would never be 1, so you'll always be alive in some lucky world).

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#290
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> under certain conditions, can experience all their observations What conditions are these?

Practice lucid dreaming, so you can maintain a semi-awake meditative state. Practice remembering your dreams -some of them are memories from other aspects like you, others are your subconscious communicating through symbols and situations. Practice asking questions, dreaming, and remembering. Practice reaching the semi-awake meditative state from the awakened end of your day. Realize, what you think of as your body,…

If you can receive information from alternative universes, experiments can be devised to prove this, and would indeed answer a great many questions in quantum physics. Physicists and others interested in the field would be extremely grateful. As would cogitative scientists and statisticians, who would need to adjust their experimentally demonstrated explanations for instinct, "guardian angels", premonitions, deja-vue etc.
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