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The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

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31–40 of 154 posts

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#31

This is a thought-provoking read. I'm currently going through Meta onboarding for the third time (once before as an intern and once full-time). The first time it was exciting; the second time it was interesting but seemed quaint, but still, neat for a first-time job; the third time it feels like a pipeline for molding the exact sort of Clueless people the article describes.

Having worked in faang as well for a while now, I can attest that most people seem to be capable of jumping to their own startups very easily.

Companies need to craft very enticing reasons to stay on as a 'Loser' (mostly via perks and pay) and even work harder to retain 'Clueless' since the latter is even more likely to leave and launch a startup being leadership focused. 'Sociopaths' are so few that they're easily gotten via acquisitions, or simply buy them.

Just a perspective =)

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#32
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend disregarding the terms ("sociopath", "clueless", "loser") used in the article, they're unnecessarily cynical and iirc originally used as a joke. This article takes a basic idea about corporate structure (something like "in any company, some people chug along, some people work hard, and some people are in it to win, and they have the following dynamics") and makes it sound awful using loaded language.

"in any company, some people chug along, some people work hard, and some people are in it to win, and they have the following dynamics" That's an oversimplification. Sociopaths are not just "in it to win". They will do whatever it takes to win, and trample as many people under foot as it takes takes them to get ahead without a twinge of conscience. The clueless in the article aren't merely working hard, they're also…

The original article is a classic because it paints a very vivid picture that is emotionally resonant with anyone who has dealt with the banality of corporate life. However it's important to remember that The Office characters trended towards caricatures over time, and individuals are not archetypes.

To that point, GPs characterization of chug-along, work-hard, and in-it-to-win-it rings just as true without pigeonholing people and better maps to the attitudes of people I've known well enough to have a deeper understanding of their psychology. Some specifics:

"Doing whatever it takes to win [...] without a twinge of conscience" does not describe the majority of C and VP levels I've known. Certainly a lot of the unpleasant decisions that need to be made (eg. layoffs) are easier if one is truly a sociopath, but in practice how do you know? The reality is that upper level management has huge orgs where most individuals don't know them personally and yet is impacted by their decisions. When the impact is negative it's often easier to believe that management doesn't care about them versus understanding why it might be the best thing for the company.

I also think that loyalty is much more orthogonal to archetype or effort level, and the idea that "clueless in the article aren't merely working hard, they're also true believers in the organization" does not really ring true. In reality, people at all levels can have varying degrees of loyalty to a company. A better model is the Dead Sea Effect—people will tend to stay if they don't believe they have better options. This is naturally going to affect middle-management more because they have achieved a higher status, and it's subject to all the noise of imposter syndrome and Dunning-Kruger, but it still applies to all levels.

Finally, I disagree that "Unlike the clueless, the losers see clearly". The losers don't necessarily see anything more clearly, they just aren't playing the same game. Manager tells them what to do, they put in the minimum effort to do it, punch the clock and go home. Are they wise because harder work never would have earned them any extra reward? Or are they creating a self-fulfilling prophecy through poor performance? Honestly it could go either way.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#33

>(the office) I’ve been unable to figure out what makes it so devastatingly effective, and elevates it so far above the likes of Dilbert and Office Space. Dilbert is a hand drawn comic so it will never have the media reach of TV. It also tends to focus more on the details of the bureaucratic brokenness for people to laugh rather than cry at in daily life. The office is syndicated TV with a new episode every week. It…

[deleted]

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#34
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of non-sociopath CEOs in the small-medium business scene. Go look at the MicroConf crowd some day, bunch of good people right there.

The question is: will only the sociopath led medium-companies become large companies? Or do large companies choose a sociopath leadership while becoming large?

In my experience, every company eventually gets led by a sociopath. Every worker has the same story about how the old boss was so good to employees etc and then replaced by some ruthless profiteer. Companies prosper (profitableish, lots of innovation, employees are first) under the former, and are eventually pillaged and killed under the latter.

I think our current economic/social climate forces the kind of gervais principle balance over a long enough timeline. The gervais principle generates predictable profits.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#36
post #3

The worst manager I ever had used to keep a copy of The Prince at his desk. He definitely looked at other people the way this article seems to encourage you to.

A bizarre choice if they were middle management; the running of a kingdom in the Prince is only really directly applicable to highest levels of C-suite management.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#38
post #3

The worst manager I ever had used to keep a copy of The Prince at his desk. He definitely looked at other people the way this article seems to encourage you to.

A bizarre choice if they were middle management; the running of a kingdom in the Prince is only really directly applicable to highest levels of C-suite management.

I guess it was their aspiration, but they behaved so apallingly to other people that they never went anywhere past middle management.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#39
post #13

I love The Office, but I don’t believe that the writers actually have some deep knowledge of business psychology and hierarchy. It seems pointless to attempt a deep analysis through that lens.

Pretty much this.

It’s the same thing as Lord if the Rings fans trying to ascribe deeper value to the curve at which Frodo tosses his Lembas wrapper away and it signifying the same trajectory as Middle Earth is on.

Or The Wire / Breaking Bad fans digging way too deep for meaning.

To be clear, I deeply appreciate all three above-mentioned stories, and they do have lots of multi-layer symbology, but sometimes a thing is just a thing.

Re: The Gervais Principle, or the Office According to “The Office” (2009)

#40

>(the office) I’ve been unable to figure out what makes it so devastatingly effective, and elevates it so far above the likes of Dilbert and Office Space. Dilbert is a hand drawn comic so it will never have the media reach of TV. It also tends to focus more on the details of the bureaucratic brokenness for people to laugh rather than cry at in daily life. The office is syndicated TV with a new episode every week. It…

I like to watch Office Space again whenever I give my two weeks' notice somewhere.
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