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Google Dart native on WebKit?

grobmeier.de

21–30 of 47 posts

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#21
post #18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of the WebKit team, I think it would be about spending a lot of time and effort to support something that isn't part of their core mission, the standardised web. It would also saddle them with an extra maintenance & support burden for the foreseeable future, to the strategic benefit of nobody but Google. I think the original conversation was hampered by a miscommunication - it was never made clea…

Let me quote the relevant paragraph from their goals in full: Standards Compliance WebKit aims for compliance with relevant web standards, and support for new standards In addition to improving compliance, we participate in the web standards community to bring new technologies into standards, and to make sure new standards are practical to implement in our engine. We use regression testing to maintain our standards c…

I agree completely that innovation should not be restricted to certain areas :-) And although I think that Dart isn't good for the web, I would encourage anyone who wants to e.g. try plugging a different VM into a browser engine to see what happens.

Secondly I would agree that WebKit has its own OS X-related baggage, but that just goes to show that nobody's perfect. It's not an argument for adding more. I would also agree that in the hypothetical case of Dart support being added to WebKit that Google would be expected to maintain their code, just as Apple would be expected to maintain OS X stuff.

But again, I think the original conversation was had at cross-purposes. What started as a conversation about hosting a branch of WebKit to do some innovating turned into a conversation about standards and the broader web. In the former case it's a purely technical question of where the work is done, but in the latter, I think the "participate in the web standards community" bit comes in to play. Why did Google come directly to WebKit to ask about integrating Dart instead of talking to e.g. the W3C or WHATWG?

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#22
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me quote the relevant paragraph from their goals in full: Standards Compliance WebKit aims for compliance with relevant web standards, and support for new standards In addition to improving compliance, we participate in the web standards community to bring new technologies into standards, and to make sure new standards are practical to implement in our engine. We use regression testing to maintain our standards c…

I agree completely that innovation should not be restricted to certain areas :-) And although I think that Dart isn't good for the web, I would encourage anyone who wants to e.g. try plugging a different VM into a browser engine to see what happens. Secondly I would agree that WebKit has its own OS X-related baggage, but that just goes to show that nobody's perfect. It's not an argument for adding more. I would also…

Secondly I would agree that WebKit has it's own OS X-related baggage, but that just goes to show that nobody's perfect. It's not an argument for adding more.

We're in agreement then, because what (I think) these patches do is creating a better abstraction for scripting engines. I'm not very familiar with WebKit code base, but if there were similar abstractions for other things, they could get rid of various #ifdefs, for example, for drawing code (CG, Skia, etc.) http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/html/can... or Dashboard http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/html/can...

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#23
post #17
post #15

Would have been interesting if Dart wouldn't have been such an atrocious, bad joke of a language.

Without explaining how Dart is,"such an atrocious, bad joke of a language" this comment simply adds nothing to the discussion. I would, however, be interested to read your critique.

They combined the worst parts of Java with the worst parts of JavaScript.

- Verboseness

- Patterns

- No type safety (combined with that dishonest “optional typing” non-sense)

- No traits (didn't they get the memo that single implementation inheritance didn't work out?)

- Map being no Iterable

- No HOFs in the collection library

- nulls even for primitive types, ...

I don't like superlatives, but I'm pretty confident calling Dart the worst language I have seen.

The only mistake they missed are probably Checked Exceptions.

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#24
post #9

HTML5 specifies "type" attribute for "script" tags http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/... The type attribute gives the language of the script or format of the data. I see no reason why some WebKit developers want to restrict what languages people can add by technical means. If there's a political reason to restrict it, they probably should discuss it within W3C and remove "type" attribute if…

Do you think WebKit should include VBScript bindings as well?

It's pretty transparent what Google wants here; anyone who forks WebKit (ie everyone not named Mozilla, Opera, Microsoft) to get Dart by default. Adding the VM is just a small additional step.

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#25
post #4

Flashback from 1996: Internet Explorer 3.0 with support of VBScript and JScript (reverse-engineered JavaScript) released. Notabene it also featured CSS, ActiveX controls and Microsoft Java VM with Java Applets - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_3 .

There was even a PerlScript plugin that you could use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PerlScript

And ActivePython via ActiveScripting. Python could even run in ASP

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#26
Please give us a proper VM like .NET(Mono is a good candidate), Java, Parrot or whatever instead of yet another crap language(both Dart and JS are shit). Provide a VM level binding layer to the DOM, and everyone will be happy. Really, I didn't expect that a company like Google will be so stupid to do so.

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#29
post #9

HTML5 specifies "type" attribute for "script" tags http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/... The type attribute gives the language of the script or format of the data. I see no reason why some WebKit developers want to restrict what languages people can add by technical means. If there's a political reason to restrict it, they probably should discuss it within W3C and remove "type" attribute if…

Do you think WebKit should include VBScript bindings as well? It's pretty transparent what Google wants here; anyone who forks WebKit (ie everyone not named Mozilla, Opera, Microsoft) to get Dart by default. Adding the VM is just a small additional step.

They are _not_ adding Dart into WebKit, they are adding the ability to add more languages.

Re: Google Dart native on WebKit?

#30
> It looks like Dart is going to become native on the WebKit Browser.

No, the actual WebKit mailing list shows the exact opposite. Opposition (mainly from Apple) was quite strong, and it looks like Google will not be able to do this as a WebKit branch.

Instead, it will be a branch somewhere outside WebKit apparently. In that respect it will be like several other Google-specific technologies that are in Chrome but not WebKit, like NaCl and Pepper.

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