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Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

quantamagazine.org

191–200 of 306 posts

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#191
post #4

There is an often-repeated statement that different quantum mechanical theories are equivalent. This is an over-simplification. Is wave function collapse is a real thing or just an approximation of what happens when a large system is entangled? Some smart people have tried to make theories where wave function collapse is a real thing. These new experiments are working to rule out those ideas. My feeling is that Evere…

I don't see how relabelling "collapse" to "separation" and adding more or less infinitely proliferating universes solves the problem. MWI also contradicts itself. Supposedly the universes are independent, but if their influence doesn't define the wave equation they do nothing to help explain it. It's a very strong and exceptional claim with absolutely no evidence to support it. "Feeling" isn't enough.

> I don't see how relabelling "collapse" to "separation" and adding more or less infinitely proliferating universes solves the problem.

MWI isn't just renaming the collapse. Copenhagen is fundamentally different in that exactly one outcome is somehow chosen / selected and all others cease to exist. In other words Copenhagen has to add / invent some information: Which world to pick and when to do so. MWI simply avoids having to pick by continuing every branch simultaneously and recursively.

Meaning that MWI is actually a simpler theory and shows that the selection is unnecessary and all problems that come with it can be avoided. In that sense, the burden of proof lies with Copenhagen IMO and it just gives handwavy answers that the selection process somehow involves a conscious observer, whatever that is ...

> MWI also contradicts itself. Supposedly the universes are independent, but if their influence doesn't define the wave equation they do nothing to help explain it.

In MWI the wave function IS the integral of all possible outcomes / worlds / branches. In that sense they don't just influence it, they define it. Not sure how that is contradictory.

Btw, the same goes for Copenhagen in the state of super position as well. So, they are identical up to the point where Copenhagen selects one (collapses) and MWI simply carries on.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#192
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the thing is that the MWI is actually simpler than all the other interpretations, because it simply removes the idea of wave function collapse entirely. Any theory involving wave function collapse is adding something extra to quantum physics that can't be demonstrated experimentally. Because we live in the macro world, it feels like a single unitary reality is simpler, but actually, the MWI makes fewer assumpti…

Only to the extent that MWI is actually a position . My understanding of MWI is: shit happens, and there's no need to understand why specific shit happens because all shit "happens" (by a definition of "happens" that carries basically no meaning) and you should be happy just to prove that the shit that happens is among the full set of shit that could happen. It's the "don't worry your pretty little head over it" theo…

Shit happens because that's how the state of matter changes over time, the wave function is the description of the state and the Schrodinger equation is the description of the state's change. That's as complete and happy understanding as it goes.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#193

Replying to a now-deleted comment: > Is there a good ... idiots guide to interpretation of quantum weirdness ? I am more than a little lost I’ve got you covered. And believe it or not, you’ll be joining Tiktok University today: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRHqk6MP/ Tiktok has been quietly amassing a huge library of educational content, and I’ve been diligently sorting those into collections. I’ll post several more rela…

[deleted]

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#194

Replying to a now-deleted comment: > Is there a good ... idiots guide to interpretation of quantum weirdness ? I am more than a little lost I’ve got you covered. And believe it or not, you’ll be joining Tiktok University today: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRHqk6MP/ Tiktok has been quietly amassing a huge library of educational content, and I’ve been diligently sorting those into collections. I’ll post several more rela…

I often post on HN that TikTok offers much more to the world than videos of girls dancing and silly pranks. It gives people what they want (for better or worse) and adapts very very quickly to tastes.

Once it learns you're a science nerd it fills your feed with some high quality educational content like this. The chemistry stuff they have is also A+.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mildly different wobbled electrons.

And what are the electrons? AFAIK, they are excitations within a quantum field. And what's a quantum field? Each layer down seems to get closer and closer to pure mathematics. I wish I understood it better.

> I wish I understood it better.

Me too but... It would still be some form of mathematics as soon as you tried to write it down in a neat, precise way for others to understand it. Maybe exotic math, but still math :p

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't seem to offer much in terms of explanation of how the entangled state ends up being what it is: According to MWI, all possible results of an experiment are manifest and real. You're asking "which particular entangled state we end up in?". You end up in all of them. For a 2-state superposition system, there are 2 versions of "you" that exist after the experiment, both of which are equally real. Subsequent…

> You end up in all of them. Except that I've only ever experienced ending up in one of them, so exactly how did the "I" that is typing this right now wind up here, and not in some other branch? There's an unexplained bifurcation of consciousness implied by MWI which it cannot explain (although I think it suggests the appeal of MWI since it gives enough wiggle room that people think that their free will could control…

You end up in all branches and your consciousness ends up in all branches, where your mind works. MWI works best with physicalism, yep :)

Maybe your copy in another branch even posted the same comment.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#197
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter affects some galaxies, but the rotation of others is completely explained by the observable matter. Why would one galaxy be influenced by its many worlds twins, but not another?

Sci-fi plot concept answer: because one galaxy is populated by sentient life, and the other isn’t.

Quarantine by Greg Egan explores this concept (the many-worlds theory, without the dark matter).

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#198
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never fully understood that idea, even after reading Hossenfelder's posts about it. The idea that there's a "block universe" and everything is predetermined is comprehensible, sure; but what's the exact mechanism by which Bell's inequality is violated in experiments? Doesn't that require the universe to have been carefully set up to look as if it's acting in a weird non-local way, on an experiment-by-experimen…

> what's the exact mechanism by which Bell's inequality is violated in experiments? It’s not violated - it simply doesn’t apply because it’s predetermined that the measurements that are done work well together. The experimenters follow the script.

That a serious scientist can believe this leads me to consider the economic benefits of believing such nonsense, rather than prompting me to examine it further. Just total rubbish

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#200
post #198
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's the exact mechanism by which Bell's inequality is violated in experiments? It’s not violated - it simply doesn’t apply because it’s predetermined that the measurements that are done work well together. The experimenters follow the script.

That a serious scientist can believe this leads me to consider the economic benefits of believing such nonsense, rather than prompting me to examine it further. Just total rubbish

We should be merciful with superdeterminists: they don't have a choice!
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