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Re: An account was suspended

#381
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Permanently suspended means not temporarily suspended (for a few weeks etc). Everyone gets the ability to appeal. Whether the twitter kerfuffle affected the appeal process is another matter though.

I think the word they really want to use there is "indefinitely." It doesn't imply the same thing that "permanently" does.

Being pedantic indefinitely means "lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time", which kind of implies that the account will be unbanned at some point in the future. But I don't think there's an English word that conveys something will last for ever but could be stopped. Perhaps they should use "limited ban" for a temporary ban and "unlimited ban" for permanent or "permanent appealable ban".

Re: An account was suspended

#382
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I think this might have been the right decision, though not for the reason given. If you remove accounts of people who frequently do not contribute anything useful to discussions, you'll get overall better discussions.

What I said was true. I challenge any1 to say a more true statement. And I commented it bc he said "we'll all likely eventually be exposed to the virus". That isnt useful information.

You were obviously trolling and Fauci made a meaningful statement in the context. It's sad that you pretend to not see the difference in order not to lose face in front of a pseudonymous internet audience. You deserve to be more honest with yourself.

Re: An account was suspended

#383
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my Amazon account deleted. I have old credit card linked to AWS with billing address in one city of Ukraine. Few weeks later after city been occupied I got message from Amazon that my account is locked due to sanctions. They give me ability to comply by removing offending credit card. But I can't do this because account is locked. I've got zero human response only broken scripts from support that I need to logi…

One gets the impression that the right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing in big corporations like this. They have probably never had to call their own tech support. It is easy to see how this could happen. AWS Sanctions compliance team: ok, the government says we need to shut down Russian accounts, so we will lock any account using a Russian payment method. False positives can just call tech support to prove t…

It's not Russian accounts. It's Ukraine account. My mother's home is located in occupied territory. Now Amazon consider that I'm affiliated with LNR.

Russian accounts are not banned. If anyone interested.

Re: An account was suspended

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if their office building evicted them, they still wouldn't have been deplatformed because they could still buy some land and build their own office; it was their own fault for leasing office space as a service and getting burned. And if their ISP cut their access, they still wouldn't have been deplatformed because they could still start their own ISP; had they truly built their own platform, no ISP could have tak…

I don't think a power plant can refuse, and an ISP shouldn't be allowed to refuse. And I don't think it's that hard to get office space with a real contract?

My point is that all of those things would be deplatforming even though they could replace the platform themselves for more independence, which means the argument doesn't hold. Regardless of whether Amazon deplatformed, the distinction is not based on whether Parler could have built their own servers.

Re: An account was suspended

#385
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a power plant can refuse, and an ISP shouldn't be allowed to refuse. And I don't think it's that hard to get office space with a real contract?

I'd broadly agree with you. There is a discussion to be had about what services should be available under common carrier or common carrier like terms, and what should not. I'd argue that at least in the internet sphere, at least DNS, Access (either ISP or peering), and probably payments of some measure should be. I don't think PAAS systems ought to be, you can do without them, nor do I think hosted services (email, s…

Anonymous speech is an essential facet of free speech- maybe the most important. Getting rid of anonymity means removing the voice of the trans woman stuck in a conservative town or in the year 2000- or the Satanist, the Muslim, the ex-con, the furry, or the BDSM enthusiast. It means making corporate whistleblowers put their livelihood on the line. It means telling John Fryer, the (at the time) anonymous gay psychiatrist who spoke out in 1972 against their treatment of gay people, to sit down and shut up. It means stopping the author of African Slavery in America (probably Thomas Paine, but left anonymous) from speaking out against slavery in 1775.

In another vein, Scott Alexander needed (partial) anonymity not to speak truth to power but to keep his patients from finding him, finding a disagreement, and treating him as an enemy. Even if it were just him in that situation, you'd be robbing me of books worth of philosophy, politics, and science- stuff that has made me a better person and a better thinker.

And you'd be removing me from this conversation, because I have friends and family across the political spectrum who I would prefer not to offend, and I have heterodox views that would upset the right with leftness and the left with rightness. Perhaps you think I should be prevented from speaking openly, but you certainly can't say it's because I am avoiding feedback- I'm seeking feedback for positions I would otherwise quietly go on believing.

What is the value added that would justify taking away the rights of so many powerless? Of suppressing any ideas that are not already mainstream?

Re: An account was suspended

#386
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd broadly agree with you. There is a discussion to be had about what services should be available under common carrier or common carrier like terms, and what should not. I'd argue that at least in the internet sphere, at least DNS, Access (either ISP or peering), and probably payments of some measure should be. I don't think PAAS systems ought to be, you can do without them, nor do I think hosted services (email, s…

Anonymous speech is an essential facet of free speech- maybe the most important. Getting rid of anonymity means removing the voice of the trans woman stuck in a conservative town or in the year 2000- or the Satanist, the Muslim, the ex-con, the furry, or the BDSM enthusiast. It means making corporate whistleblowers put their livelihood on the line. It means telling John Fryer, the (at the time) anonymous gay psychiat…

I dont think you can or should get rid of anonymous free speech, but I that because of the nature of their platforms - the platforms publishing it have a right, if not obligation to exert editorial control.

I'm also fairly heterodox in my views (and queer on top of that) but when you have a random dude on a couch who can reach an audience of millions at the press of a button, the math changes - algorithmic amplification of hate, wingnuttery, etc - is a serious problem for the stability of democracy.

The issue isnt anonymous speech persay, that always has existed and should - it just used to cost something before, you had to have money for a printer, convince the printer to print your screed, distribute it widely enough to have an impact. Those costs lessened the impact, and reduced the societal risks.

Elsewhere on here, I proposed a federated karma system that extends the idea of community reputation (a norm in closed communities, like HN, Furry, etc) as a transparent replacement for direct editorial control, while still persisting anonymity.

Re: An account was suspended

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the OP's point is that almost every new technology is greeted with accusations of being worse than what came before and what it's assumed it will replace, whether or not that actually proves to be the case. The examples may seem facetious, but they're all real. I do think a case could be made that the changes in communication driven by the internet actually are different, but it's not the change itself, per…

My point is, I don't think people really said that about telephone and telegraph. Not every new technology was taken as being worse, so dismissing problems of Twitter just because it's new and "people hated everything new" isn't really good.

> I don't think people really said that about telephone and telegraph

A quick Google search will show that they did in fact say these things about the telephone and telegraph

> In 1858, People Said the Telegraph Was 'Too Fast for the Truth'

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/07/in-18...

> “The telephone is the instrument of the devil”

https://www.ericsson.com/en/about-us/history/communication/h...

Re: An account was suspended

#388
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've played devil's advocate elsewhere in the thread, but this is such a petty and irrelevant kerfuffle, as far as Big-Tech-Censorship goes. By Ben's own description of how the @StratecheryINT account was operated [0] -- i.e. "a new account that has posted a bunch of links (all Stratechery interviews) in a short amount of time, from multiple locations around the world." -- this is exactly the kind of low-hanging frui…

It doesn't have to be a lot of links, if you piss off the wrong people and they massreport you you're temporarily out. You can reach out to support, but I don't know that support actually ever responds to any requests. Apparently according to posts on reddit if you add your number to twitter and something happens you won't even be able to ever remove it. Similarly they have weird intransparent policies regarding what…

I remember a day when WordPerfect employed thousands of local college students to staff top-notch help lines. They had what at the time was state-of-the-art phone queue management and tried very hard to minimize your wait time. If you needed help adjusting margins or creating footnotes, just call their support and they'll fix you up.

Can you imagine Google answering a phone call or a chat line to explain how to arrange bookmarks in Chrome? Ok, Chrome doesn't cost money, so maybe that's fair. How about Microsoft helping to move the taskbar back to the bottom of the screen? How about Samsung explaining how to set DoNotDisturb? Facebook walking you through how to recover from somebody taking over your account?

Ah, the bad old good old days...

Re: An account was suspended

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a power plant can refuse, and an ISP shouldn't be allowed to refuse. And I don't think it's that hard to get office space with a real contract?

My point is that all of those things would be deplatforming even though they could replace the platform themselves for more independence, which means the argument doesn't hold. Regardless of whether Amazon deplatformed, the distinction is not based on whether Parler could have built their own servers.

It depends on what your definition of "deplatforming" is but if it's so broad to count a twitter ban then "deplatforming" isn't very dangerous in general.

Re: An account was suspended

#390
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymous speech is an essential facet of free speech- maybe the most important. Getting rid of anonymity means removing the voice of the trans woman stuck in a conservative town or in the year 2000- or the Satanist, the Muslim, the ex-con, the furry, or the BDSM enthusiast. It means making corporate whistleblowers put their livelihood on the line. It means telling John Fryer, the (at the time) anonymous gay psychiat…

I dont think you can or should get rid of anonymous free speech, but I that because of the nature of their platforms - the platforms publishing it have a right, if not obligation to exert editorial control. I'm also fairly heterodox in my views (and queer on top of that) but when you have a random dude on a couch who can reach an audience of millions at the press of a button, the math changes - algorithmic amplificat…

I guess it's one of those things where I'm seeing a different reality from everyone else, but the notion that uncensored speech is the source of our present strife is one that I don't accept. I witnessed this series of events:

1. Early 2000s created a bunch of social media websites with free speech (then meaning protection from Christian-right censorship, which was the concern at the time) as a premise. These were fine places. There were occasional nutjobs and constant arguments, but people were generally comfortable participating. I argued with racists one day, communists the next, fascists, nazis. I developed a deeper understanding of my own beliefs on those issues. I argued against but was eventually convinced by drug legalization, trans rights, abortion rights- the list is long and embarrassing.

2. These websites saw an opportunity for growth, accelerated maybe by Facebook's IPO, but starting somewhere around the late 00s. The nutjobs and arguments were a turn-off to a potentially larger user base. So they drew a line in the sand, clefting the population into the would-be-censored and the would-not-be. The would-bes had to go express themselves somewhere else. If I wanted to argue with fringe people, I had to go into their echo chamber. It was not the place for me.

3. Opinions that were common on both sides in the 90s became opinions of the right only, and then became forbidden. The line in the sand moved leftwards. Little effort was made to convince anyone that these changes were good (I agree they were); mockery and 'educate yourself, bigot' became the norm. Extremism grew rapidly in both the de jure right-leaning spaces and the de facto left-leaning spaces, because the two groups had entered into feedback loops. Remaining holdouts were forced to move because expressing correlated viewpoints was now faux pas, and they faced guilt by association.

4. Sometime around 2015, people collectively decided that everything needed to be political all the time. This was a moral imperative. My apolitical communities were overrun by propagandists of one side or another (mostly the left, but I was on Reddit so that biases things). As Trump's campaign wore on, people concluded that the issue was not enough censorship, and added more.

5. The situation worsened, and COVID made 'misinformation' the new pro-censorship buzzword. More censorship was clearly the answer. Lab-leak theorists were suppressed and the Hunter Biden story was censored weeks before the election. Any remaining general public trust in the institutions responsible and their allies faded further. Election doubts festered the same way everything else had and we wound up with Jan 6.

6. More censorship?

7. Profit

That's just my personal experience, and I recognize that others see things differently. On top of that, fascism gained power a number of times through the 1900s, which was pre-internet, and often did so in censorious environments like Weimar Germany. Things like climate change denial and anti-vax both predate mainstream social media. All-in-all, blaming the lack of internet censorship for our polarization and extremism today falls very flat for me.

Setting all of that aside, it does not make sense to me that we should restrict human rights because some corporate algorithm amplifies hateful or extreme speech. Rewrite the damn algorithm.

I do like your federated karma system, and I have also thought about things like opt-in moderation (to enable opposing voices to occupy the same space comfortably) or a small limit on comments per user per day (to prevent things like 1% of twitter users write 80% of tweets, and encourage higher effort contributions). I don't think these solutions violate free speech, and they may produce better outcomes than 'don't censor'. But 'don't censor' would be a great start.

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