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Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

quantamagazine.org

51–60 of 306 posts

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#51
post #3

Looking out for quantum consciousness in articles about quantum physics would be a good drinking game, though here it is handled with a proper amount of scepticism. The pressure is enormous for writers to include mumbo-jumbo, because people click on these articles expecting to find out that it's possible to alter the Universe with psyhic abilities, which is how quantum physics is represented in social media, especial…

Isn't it safe to assume that everything on TikTok is make-believe though?

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#52
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been passionate about this for awhile, I have a layman’s surface overview of the state of physics, or I like to believe so. It amused me to no end when my elderly aunt came to ask me for a tl;dr; on Quantum Physics. She stopped me shortly asking how she can control the universe with her mind. I tried to explain a bit about the famous interpretation (Copenhagen, not Von Neumann–Wigner) but she would have none o…

To be fair, the Copenhagen interpretation doesn't really fit today's world view. We have largely moved away from viewing humans or "consciousness" as something special, so the notion that an observer collapses the wave function just seems weird now. "Many worlds" or "the wave function never collapses, you are in a superposition" both make much more sense with how we currently view the world

I also prefer the Many Worlds interpretation and I do think that it is gaining popularity in relation to Copenhagen, but I'm not sure what you mean by "today's world view". And who is this "we" that you write about?

I prefer Many Worlds because it is a simpler explanation, so I follow Occam's razor. That's it.

Consciousness and the existence of qualia remains a fundamental mystery. There is something definitely special about it, in the sense that it currently does not fit any scientific model. It is also a deep philosophical problem that started being considered millennia ago and dates at least all the way back to Plato vs Aristotle.

In my experience, people who think that consciousness is somehow a settled matter simply haven't thought about it enough and are perhaps a bit naive on the many ramifications of the issue that have been explored do far.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#54
post #4

There is an often-repeated statement that different quantum mechanical theories are equivalent. This is an over-simplification. Is wave function collapse is a real thing or just an approximation of what happens when a large system is entangled? Some smart people have tried to make theories where wave function collapse is a real thing. These new experiments are working to rule out those ideas. My feeling is that Evere…

Check out "superdeterminism," first proposed by Bell (of Bell's inequality fame) himself and currently being vigorously pursued by Sabina Hossenfelder. There is no "collapse" per se according to this model and everything is really classical with hidden variables, and the entanglement comes because everything shared the same origin (the big bang). A very fascinating and in my opinion the best explanation, though it's extremely controversial and taboo because of its implications on free will (e.g., I see no mention of it at all in this article).

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No interpretation of quantum physics proposed by scientists ever required a conscious observer, that's more of a misinterpretation of what an observer is. It's an interaction, not a person or animal. As for the theory of consciousness, of course we are not special, it's information-processing, and it looks like thermodynamics is responsible for the emergence of information-processing structures. https://arxiv.org/abs…

> No interpretation of quantum physics proposed by scientists ever required a conscious observer, that's more of a misinterpretation of what an observer is. It's an interaction, not a person or animal. Are you saying that the Von Neumann–Wigner interpretation[1] does not explicitly postulate consciousness to be necessary for the completion of the process of quantum measurement? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Ne…

Those guys are excused, they were early on the floor, had no idea what's going on. They grew up believing that nature is deterministic, but quantum physics complicated that picture a great deal.

I should've said no interpretation in the 21st century.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#56

From a layman’s point of view, it seems like we grasping at straws when it comes to these thorny quantum questions. Is fair to say, for example, that we are about as clueless as our ancestors were with the bubonic plague? To a non-expert it can be difficult to separate which theories lay on solid ground and which theories are highly speculative.

QM is hard to visualise, but we have extremely sophisticated equations and principles for determining how quantum systems will evolve, and can engineer complex functioning systems using that knowledge. For example transistors only work because we understand QM well enough to precisely engineer the energy level state behaviour of electrons in semiconductors.

It would be like accidentally discovering antibiotics during the plague. You might not know how it works or why, but you know what it does and it absolutely gets the job done.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#57
post #6
post #3

Looking out for quantum consciousness in articles about quantum physics would be a good drinking game, though here it is handled with a proper amount of scepticism. The pressure is enormous for writers to include mumbo-jumbo, because people click on these articles expecting to find out that it's possible to alter the Universe with psyhic abilities, which is how quantum physics is represented in social media, especial…

Having been passionate about this for awhile, I have a layman’s surface overview of the state of physics, or I like to believe so. It amused me to no end when my elderly aunt came to ask me for a tl;dr; on Quantum Physics. She stopped me shortly asking how she can control the universe with her mind. I tried to explain a bit about the famous interpretation (Copenhagen, not Von Neumann–Wigner) but she would have none o…

What I don't understand is why we call it "observation" when it should really be "interaction". The quantum weirdness resulting from the collapse of probabilities has nothing to do with a conscious observer, just whether and at what point the phenomena in question interact with something else in an observable way.

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#58
post #4

There is an often-repeated statement that different quantum mechanical theories are equivalent. This is an over-simplification. Is wave function collapse is a real thing or just an approximation of what happens when a large system is entangled? Some smart people have tried to make theories where wave function collapse is a real thing. These new experiments are working to rule out those ideas. My feeling is that Evere…

Check out "superdeterminism," first proposed by Bell (of Bell's inequality fame) himself and currently being vigorously pursued by Sabina Hossenfelder. There is no "collapse" per se according to this model and everything is really classical with hidden variables, and the entanglement comes because everything shared the same origin (the big bang). A very fascinating and in my opinion the best explanation, though it's…

I have never fully understood that idea, even after reading Hossenfelder's posts about it. The idea that there's a "block universe" and everything is predetermined is comprehensible, sure; but what's the exact mechanism by which Bell's inequality is violated in experiments? Doesn't that require the universe to have been carefully set up to look as if it's acting in a weird non-local way, on an experiment-by-experiment basis? I assume I am just misunderstanding the idea, though. Any suggested reading material much appreciated!

Re: Experiments spell doom for physical-collapse explanation of quantum weirdness

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of learning about the grandfather paradox as a kid. I recall hearing shit about scientists saying if you were to travel back in time, you would be compelled by a universal force to do things that don't alter the future and create a paradox. Even as a kid, that sounded so idiotic. In retrospect it was almost certainly the reporting that was wrong.

Is that really so weird? That's a very common version of time travel in SF, perhaps the most common. You can travel back in time, and you think you're changing history, but through a series of unlikely coincidences you end up being the person who created the history you were trying to change. Come to think of it, maybe that's more common in short stories, where the "gotcha!" format works. It's probably harder to spin…

>I can't think off-hand of any time travel novels with unchangeable history.

Harry Potter has this as a plot point in one of the books. He essentially teaches/inspires himself to a spell to save the day.

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