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Cloud costs are in a bubble

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61–70 of 103 posts

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#61
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk of what? Having to make ends meet on a $150,000 one? You're not exactly risking your life and limb by taking a job at a cloud firm. Demand for software isn't going anywhere, and no hiring manager at any future job will give two cares as to whether or not your previous employer's revenues were inflated or not.

> You're not exactly risking your life and limb You are risking opportunity elsewhere. Let's say your options are working as a developer for a random Fart App startup or a government job sweeping floors that has been around for centuries. Which are you going to choose? If they both offer $50,000 per year, the choice is clear: The government job. It is the one that is almost certain to have more longevity. But if the…

> Thing is, it does disappear approximately every 10 years, as we've observed since software first became a thing.

It slows down, along with the rest of the economy during recessions, because it, like everything else, is driven by the same market forces.

My point is that in the average case, there is ~zero opportunity cost or damage to your career, because you worked at MS Azure, instead of... Somewhere else.

You cite fartapp startups that run on rainbows and free VC money, but cloud providers are about as dissimilar from the fartapp as you can get, in terms of their economics and prospects.

You may be bearish on them, that's fine, I can't predict the future, but I see no reason to believe that you're going to have a better life working at literally any other random software firm, during an economic contraction. There's always a few workplaces that tend to be counter-cyclical, but they are, by definition, a minority.

... Also, many government jobs are a political football, that are only as secure as the next election. The best part is that after you worked one, and had half your compensation deferred to retirement, some politician will come along, and campaign on reneging on your pay, after you've given your thirty years of service.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#62

Be it VC money, or just general apathy, it seems cloud costs are rarely a priority. My biggest gripe is when see that justification that goes like, "developer's time is $100/hr and better spent elsewhere." Okay, I agree, doing something like self-hosting everything to reduce costs would be a terrible idea, but there's a fine balance. In 2019, Lyft spent $300M on AWS [1]. Sure, it's a big service, but are you seriousl…

The weird thing is, the nature of their business does not imply any significant computing needs. As a rough estimate they have served on the order of 1 billion customers, so that suggest they need 1 billion, multiplied by some factor of cruft, database rows. Depending on the cruft factor that should be somewhere between easily fitting on a single disk, up to a few of them. Add in redundancy and backup and we have still not filled a rack cabinet.

Maybe all those computers are doing something that someone thought was important, but it is not serving the core business.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're not exactly risking your life and limb You are risking opportunity elsewhere. Let's say your options are working as a developer for a random Fart App startup or a government job sweeping floors that has been around for centuries. Which are you going to choose? If they both offer $50,000 per year, the choice is clear: The government job. It is the one that is almost certain to have more longevity. But if the…

> Thing is, it does disappear approximately every 10 years, as we've observed since software first became a thing. It slows down, along with the rest of the economy during recessions, because it, like everything else, is driven by the same market forces. My point is that in the average case, there is ~zero opportunity cost or damage to your career, because you worked at MS Azure, instead of... Somewhere else. You cit…

> It slows down, along with the rest of the economy during recessions, because it, like everything else, is driven by the same market forces.

Tech has been the darling of late exactly because it hasn't followed the general economy. In 2008, when virtually every other industry was about to sound death knells, developers were making bank producing apps. Similar story through the pandemic, when people were locked out of work during lockdowns tech was making a killing selling them things to do with their free time. Not having a good reckoning like everyone else only makes it appear more risky as time marches forward as it is assumed its day will come.

> but cloud providers are about as dissimilar from the fartapp as you can get.

I can't imagine Firebase, which is supposedly the fourth largest cloud provider according to a recent article here, is used for anything much beyond fart apps. As the fart apps die, where does that leave their business model?

Providing tooling to the gold prospectors is a good business to be in... Until people stop prospecting for gold. Firebase is Google at the end of the day, but if that division dies, that's still significant.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#64
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally from the first line of the article you linked: > Lyft has signed up to pay cloud market leader Amazon Web Services at least $80 million per year for the next three years, totaling at least $300 million. You can launch a massive project, hire dozens of people, buy server and colo space across the globe, rebuild their infra from scratch, and get costs down to – what – $60 million a year? Lyft is closing in on…

If Lyft consistently made money, I'd completely agree with you. That's not the world we live in, though.

I think that an uber are more like a public service now, lol. So whoever invests in them long term doing the public service and not expecting real good returns.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#65
post #8

Why are people still using Mongo when you can just set up a jsonb column in Postgres now? Is this just legacy applications that are stuck with Mongo? Certainly nobody is starting new projects on Mongo? Serious question.

same as why people use Oracle/SQL Server when there is free SQLite?

because that is how they compare feature wise.

postgres is not easily comparable to mongo, these are totally different db engines with different tradeoffs made for different purposes.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#66
post #3

Related reading from DHH (creator of Ruby on Rails, Basecamp, and Hey): https://world.hey.com/dhh/why-we-re-leaving-the-cloud-654b47...

All of these posts never seem to talk about the operational overheard they're saving by using the cloud. 500k/year is a couple of engineers. And IME, at scale, Elasticsearch is a huge pain to self manage.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#67
post #65
post #8

Why are people still using Mongo when you can just set up a jsonb column in Postgres now? Is this just legacy applications that are stuck with Mongo? Certainly nobody is starting new projects on Mongo? Serious question.

same as why people use Oracle/SQL Server when there is free SQLite? because that is how they compare feature wise. postgres is not easily comparable to mongo, these are totally different db engines with different tradeoffs made for different purposes.

SQLite isn’t really comparable to Oracle or SQL Server though. It’s an embedded database. Probably you meant Postgres there too?

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#68
post #8

Why are people still using Mongo when you can just set up a jsonb column in Postgres now? Is this just legacy applications that are stuck with Mongo? Certainly nobody is starting new projects on Mongo? Serious question.

Mongo will scale out horizontally better than Postgres. But most people don’t need that, and there are other alternatives to Mongo that will also scale in this way.

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#69
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

same as why people use Oracle/SQL Server when there is free SQLite? because that is how they compare feature wise. postgres is not easily comparable to mongo, these are totally different db engines with different tradeoffs made for different purposes.

SQLite isn’t really comparable to Oracle or SQL Server though. It’s an embedded database. Probably you meant Postgres there too?

same with postgres's jsonb - it is not comparable to mongo at all, they dont have any feature parity

Re: Cloud costs are in a bubble

#70
post #3

Related reading from DHH (creator of Ruby on Rails, Basecamp, and Hey): https://world.hey.com/dhh/why-we-re-leaving-the-cloud-654b47...

All of these posts never seem to talk about the operational overheard they're saving by using the cloud. 500k/year is a couple of engineers. And IME, at scale, Elasticsearch is a huge pain to self manage.

At that scale you also have engineers with the only purpose of managing AWS things.
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