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DevOps is broken

blog.massdriver.cloud

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Re: DevOps is broken

#231
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

"Sysadmin" got rebranded as "DevOps", because "techsupport" got rebranded as "sysadmin".

Yerp. As a former *nix admin, around the time that "DevOps" became a term, I read it as "system administrator, who also now has to fix developer code." Which, honestly, was already part of the job at a lot of places I've worked, owed to the age old problem of people who "test" something on their weird personal desktop environment, then hand it off and shrug off any questions with "well, it works on my desktop". That said, the part that I found offensive was that I was doing 2 jobs, but only getting paid for one.

Then came DevSecOps. Around that time, I switched to just Security, and while I miss the ability to make and push changes to hundreds of thousands of machines to get things done, I don't miss any of the pressure or blame that automatically got lumped onto the sysadmin shoulders every time anything went wrong, and the complete lack of appreciation of all the times nothing went wrong, that were entirely the result of a tireless, efficient systems administration team.

Re: DevOps is broken

#232
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

Do those different breeds of engineers work in one team or in separate organizational branches?

The problem the term 'devops' is addressing, the way I understand it, isn't that of insufficient individual jack-of-tradesness, but that of too much separation between (internal) organisations. It should be perfectly possible to build a "devops" team from deeply specialized experts and turning it into a job description seems quite a stretch to me.

But you might actually want some jack-of-trades types nonetheless, because those isolated organizations weren't completely without merit: they are good at solving that problem affectionately called the bus factor. A single ops guy in a devops team is a single point of failure and the mitigation preparation of keeping some of the not-so-ops peers sufficiently in the loop will be much more dependent on organic motivation than the counterpart in a specialist company branch. There, substitutability would be much easier to ensure with formal process.

Re: DevOps is broken

#233
> The problem is most engineers don’t want to do operations work.

Nah, the problem is that most (software) engineers don't have the skills to do operations work.

Let's not fool ourselves: software development is 95% development (writing code/docs/test etc) and 5% system administration (getting your local mysql or whatever up and running etc) whereas operations is usually 95% screaming at the machines (various linux tasks, writing glue scripts, infrastructure, networking etc) and 5% development (the aforementioned glue scripts, writing internal docs).

The fields do overlap, but very little.

They require two different skill sets.

They require two different mindsets, too: a software engineer is usually optimistic (works on my machine, will work in prod too) whereas a sysadmin/operations person is usually pessimistic (what's our disaster recovery strategy?).

Re: DevOps is broken

#234
post #221
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

I don't understand how seemingly 90% of developers, can't do anything outside of their narrow scope of experience. Writing a shell script? Throw a temper tantrum, that's devops job! Have to work with legacy code? I can't believe this! Especially seniors and beyond. They force leetcode interviews they somehow pass or are grandfathered through and gatekeep "trash devs" by slamming gotchas about how the whiteboarded cod…

I learned SQL because my coworker was stuck on a bug she couldn't figure out and 'knew' I'd be able to solve her problem.

I just kept asking questions until I found the one she missed.

I also ended up becoming a bespoke VxWorks admin because the guy who volunteered was never available, and someone asserted my code wasn't working well on VxWorks, so of course I had to know enough to do benchmarks. I fixed a few problems but the real issue was the hard drive wasn't doing DMA due to the kernel not recognizing the processor revision number.

Somewhere between those two events I realized that if my part of the project is great but the whole project is on fire, nobody cares about my stuff. I don't get points for being right and the team being wrong. I mean, I do for some people, but I still feel bad at the end of the project, and those are the 'points' I have to live with the most.

The way that played on on the latter project is that once we got our shit together, we started work stealing from our peer orgs. Volunteering to carve off little pieces of interface between us and 'take care' of this bit of data handling here and that one over there. I came to realize that the Org subconsciously knew this and any past success they had was due to self-organization and collective work-stealing.

Throw people at it, turn a blind eye to precise mission statements, and hope for the best.

Re: DevOps is broken

#235
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

Some time ago, i was talking to an MBA people /project manager guy was ho had a completely different definition of what "devops" meant. His meaning was some kind of project management approach.

We have a way to prostitute words in this field... agile, QA, devops.

Re: DevOps is broken

#236

I have bewilderingly tried to discern why software development continues to grow more and more complex. It wasn’t always like this. There was a time when we talked about languages and OSes and libraries as if they made a difference on how much you could get done with as little people and cognitive load as possible (the claims were very much overrated, but the point was we acted like it mattered). And then it started…

I sometimes marvel at how few people worked on various pieces of commercial software in the 90s. You'd have 4x the headcount and still take twice as long, today. And it'd probably be webshit instead of native because "productivity matters more than performance".

Re: DevOps is broken

#237
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SOA is just Spaghetti Architecture. I haven't seen an implementation that convinces me otherwise.

Any general purpose architecture allows spaghetti, there's no way around it.

Has there been an architecture movement that formally embraces the spaghetti, aiming for peaceful coexistence? Detractors will certainly point at SOA and shout "that one!", but I mean one that openly admits..

Re: DevOps is broken

#238

I have bewilderingly tried to discern why software development continues to grow more and more complex. It wasn’t always like this. There was a time when we talked about languages and OSes and libraries as if they made a difference on how much you could get done with as little people and cognitive load as possible (the claims were very much overrated, but the point was we acted like it mattered). And then it started…

It has blown me away too. There was a time where it seemed like the default "devops" strategy for startups was to use Heroku. Developers could spend all their time working on code. Worked at a startup a few years ago. We had 2 devs, and one devops guy building out Kubernetes, Docker, running on Aws. Had to constantly spend me time with him troubleshooting why this or that thing wasn't working rather than writing application code. We had like a 100 concurrent users.

Now I am working at a large org for an internal application. There is an ops team I push code to github and Jenkins runs the CI and deploys it to a dev environment. I push a button in Jenkins to deploy to production. In two years there has been one ops related issue where I had to bump up the memory limit from 2GB to 4GB. There is a single server and a database. Setup works fine for a few thousand concurrent users. My skills are in development and understanding business reqs, not mucking about in config files. There are people that are good at that and enjoy doing that, let them handle it.

Re: DevOps is broken

#239
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, anytime I talk with someone about DevOps ... we end up having to hash out the entire process to really know what either of us are actually talking about. Otherwise you have these situations "Yea the DevOps guy messed up the widget and nobody notic---" "Wait, what is the DevOps guy doing even touching that widget.... what is even DevOps to you?" "Bro that widget IS DevOps." -silence- Same applies to the topic…

this devops is also a dumping ground for anything else not happening on a developers computer which they should control but wont because "That is devops job" mostly this happens alot with node projects for some reason..

"anything else not happening on a developers computer which they should control but wont"

Ok, I've seen this, but IME (24y in industry, the last 6 as a consultant) in the vast majority of cases, it's more like "things devs should control but CAN'T [bc CICD etc are silo'd and owned jealously by an overburdened ops team unable or unwilling to facilitate self-service]".

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