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DevOps is broken

blog.massdriver.cloud

161–170 of 363 posts

Re: DevOps is broken

#161
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

Yep, this has been the hardest fight in our "culture shift towards devops" - getting the idea and wording right.

After a lot of discussion, we mostly realized that we get the most value if we define more specific operational roles. We now have the idea of infra-ops, and product-ops. infra-ops is providing a deployment platform - a container runtime and persistences. product-ops on the other hand is responsible for deploying and running the different products from development on this deployment platform.

And this is giving people good ideas. Some products are very simple without harsh requirements. In these cases, one of the backend devs just takes over the product-ops role by setting up a deployment pipeline, a job and some migration handling. Other products are bigger - for example we are providing some of our systems as essentially managed systems to invididual tenants and customers. In such a case, parts of the product operations is with the product team - such as writing jobs, releasing containers and artifacts, and other parts of the product-ops role takes place in the managed services consultancy. These products are currently looking at wordings to split up the product-ops role according to their needs in their context. And that's totally fine - the infra-ops role is also divided depending on the system the engineer is working on. A postgres admin is an infra-operator, for example.

And all of this results in a devops oriented culture of cooperating across team boundaries through automated processes.

Re: DevOps is broken

#162

I have bewilderingly tried to discern why software development continues to grow more and more complex. It wasn’t always like this. There was a time when we talked about languages and OSes and libraries as if they made a difference on how much you could get done with as little people and cognitive load as possible (the claims were very much overrated, but the point was we acted like it mattered). And then it started…

I tried out cloudflare for the first time yesterday using a personal website. Previously I was just using a domain registrar and setting DNS to digital ocean. cloudflare is a very different/complex beast, but I can imagine that the pretty interface alone brings in customers.

I don't like this hyper-expansion either, but when you have an army of monkeys on typewriters, well, a lot gets "produced".

Re: DevOps is broken

#163
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

You hire build engineers and release engineers seperately? Does your product demand that level of specialization for these 2 functions? Just curious

Re: DevOps is broken

#164
Well sure I would like to do DevOps as well as a software engineer but I'm getting drowned in agile ceremonies already, meanwhile the devops guys has like 10 hours a week more time as he doesn't have all the agile re-/pre-/postrefinement/retro/intro/outro/daily/weekly etc. They do like bidaily devops meet or 1on1 calls and care for their infra.

Re: DevOps is broken

#165
post #152
post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

I'm convinced the use of the term "DevOps" continues only because of its incredible polymorphic vagueness... Two intelligent, sincere, experienced tech people can discuss devops, in detail, for a good length of time, and still be talking right past each other without really noticing.

It exists so people who dole out money can make one person do two jobs.

Re: DevOps is broken

#167
post #76
post #31

DevOps is bullshit in the same way that Agile is bullshit. So, it's actually not at all, but just has become so fashionable that the term is sufficiently abused to become almost useless.

100% agreement. Agile and devops have done more to wreck software development than anything I've seen in more than 30 years in the industry.

I think you misunderstood your parent post’s point.

Re: DevOps is broken

#168
Funny, I thought DevOps was introduced as a way of having the specialists be part of the same team, so that the dev side would keep ops in mind and the ops side would be getting dev help in automating. Creating a separate DevOps team seems like a manager reading an article and implementing without understanding.

The problem in a lot of orgs is having various priesthoods that have their own goals that aren't aligned with other teams/the business. For example:

- hardware purchase

- software purchase

- DBA

- ops/infra

- networking (firewalls esp)

- security

- HR/recruiting

- business analysis

- front end/design/ux/dev

- back end dev

- technical documentation

All of these are roles and they can have specialists, but you probably want them aligned and rewarded for keeping the business running, not serving specific measurement goals like uptime, to the detriment of selling product. These priesthoods often have their own religious virtues that they espouse, like 3rd normal form or low TCO, that they pursue in absence of directions and understanding of their role in the business.

It's easy to see the problem but wicked hard to prevent it or fix it. I have a small organization and it's difficult to get people really on board with a vision.

Re: DevOps is broken

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t hire devops, I hire infra engineers, build engineers, release engineers and: backend engineers. This is a great way to do it. There seems to be a correlation between unnecessary product complexity and unnecessary corporate complexity. Being direct about roles goes a long way towards simplifying corporate complexity.

> There seems to be a correlation between unnecessary product complexity and unnecessary corporate complexity. That's Conway's law. "Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law

Conway's Law is sorely overlooked. It really does have broad applicability in the industry, and sometimes you can use it to evaluate vendors better (read: this product is a bit haphazard...the vendor probably is also. Warning.)

Re: DevOps is broken

#170
Very shortsighted article ignoring a lot of responsibilities developers don't want to assume and want somebody else to be on the hook for costs, secruity, breaches, on-call rotations, SOC-2 compliance - you name it. With freedom comes responsibility!
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