DevOps is broken • Hacker News Board

Re: DevOps is broken

#121

Post by softfalcon » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #75

dijit wrote: post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

>>the only alternative is to start making CPUs by hand Agreed. For some applications the cloud difference is significant; for many (most?) others though, "Cloud" is just rebrand of "Hosted". And even for more cloudy offerings, while I'm in a very specific and different part of IBM, some of the old timers/architects/powers-that-be keep trying to explain "We had that in 1969 !!!" :-D Agreed also at rewriting of history…

The two of you have validated my very existence as a coder. I keep jokingly telling everyone that we’re often going around in circles. No one ever believes me (lol!)

Re: DevOps is broken

#122

Post by dustymcp » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #43

dijit wrote: post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

Agreed, anytime I talk with someone about DevOps ... we end up having to hash out the entire process to really know what either of us are actually talking about. Otherwise you have these situations "Yea the DevOps guy messed up the widget and nobody notic---" "Wait, what is the DevOps guy doing even touching that widget.... what is even DevOps to you?" "Bro that widget IS DevOps." -silence- Same applies to the topic…

this devops is also a dumping ground for anything else not happening on a developers computer which they should control but wont because "That is devops job" mostly this happens alot with node projects for some reason..

Re: DevOps is broken

#123

Post by zwilliamson » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

It takes really good engineering leadership to build a platform team. With the wherewithal to follow through on migrations and marketing of the platform. Also, sourcing the right people internally and elevating them. These engineers become true full stack (the whole OSI model) engineers and their work most definitely shouldn’t be thankless or taken for granted by product leaders. I’ve seen efforts like this fall apart in very ugly ways due to a lack of leadership.

Re: DevOps is broken

#124

Post by burnished » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

Izmaki wrote: post #116

Izmaki wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hire those engineers and then you have them implement and support Continuous Delivery for your business, yes? DevOps is a silly term, but one that companies seem to use for "infrastructure engineers who help us continuously deliver value to our customers, efficiently and pain-free". Give your people whatever title you feel comfortable with - but essentially they are "doing the DevOps". :P

Did I get downvoted because I'm right and the truth hurts or is there a disagreement somebody chose to not share? Hmm...

You basically assert that the other person is categorically wrong without argument but by rereredefining words. It doesn't read as productive to me.

Re: DevOps is broken

#125

Post by hintymad » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

> Congrats, that’s not DevOps. I’d wager most of what they are doing is using Terraform and YAML to do menial tasks for the engineering team. > Need a database? File a ticket with DevOps.

Shouldn't the "DevOps" team build APIs and consoles so eng teams can provision their resources without knowing TFE/YAML from a mile away? Really, this is year 2202. Please, learn from AWS and Netflix. Do software development. Get rid of the god damn ticketing process. Friends don't let friends touch TFE/YAML or whatever configuration files.

Re: DevOps is broken

#126

Post by ogogmad » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

nathanaldensr wrote: post #86

travisgriggs wrote: post #34

I have bewilderingly tried to discern why software development continues to grow more and more complex. It wasn’t always like this. There was a time when we talked about languages and OSes and libraries as if they made a difference on how much you could get done with as little people and cognitive load as possible (the claims were very much overrated, but the point was we acted like it mattered). And then it started…

I completely agree that 20+ years of cheap money have absolutely caused much of the complexity we see today. That's because people aren't working on problems that matter; instead, they're just trying to make VCs rich--effectively passing the buck on to the greater fool. I think this era is coming to an end, and we should see a drastic reduction in software development costs with the end of cheap debt.

I hope I'm not being pedantic here, so please forgive me. Didn't interest rates go to zero after 2008? So that's 14 years. I guess 8 years before that there was also Dot Com.

Are you talking about interest rates? Thanks.

Even if you're wrong, it's an interesting theory.

Re: DevOps is broken

#127

Post by sbf501 » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #43

dijit wrote: post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

Agreed, anytime I talk with someone about DevOps ... we end up having to hash out the entire process to really know what either of us are actually talking about. Otherwise you have these situations "Yea the DevOps guy messed up the widget and nobody notic---" "Wait, what is the DevOps guy doing even touching that widget.... what is even DevOps to you?" "Bro that widget IS DevOps." -silence- Same applies to the topic…

"Hey, did the front-end new-hire upgrade the Linux distro yet?"

Re: DevOps is broken

#128

Post by taylodl » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

I disagree. DevOps was intended to break the organizational mindset of having this group of people here doing this set of activities and this other group of people over there doing that set of activities when in reality both groups of people are needed to work together and deploy software. It was about breaking down those organizational silos. Anybody creating a dedicated "DevOps" team was way off the mark, unless that team was a coaching team whose job it was to help other teams become self-sufficient. Unfortunately the fact that an engineering team had responsibility for their software from implementation, to deployment, to operations was a news flash to large organizations having traditional IT staff. The DevOps mindset has led to much better operational excellence.

The DevOps mindset has also led to the Internal Developer Platform this article discusses. Honestly, I don't see how traditional IT organizations are going to easily arrive at such a platform without having adopted the DevOps mindset first.

So DevOps isn't bullshit, but it's not the end goal either. It's a necessary step needed on your journey for getting somewhere better.

Re: DevOps is broken

#129

Post by Melatonic » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #114

Over the last ten years, the market has tried to kill off the hardware, systems, network and security people, and mostly succeeded. As a result, it's relatively easy to find someone who advertises as "full stack devops" who has never actually operated any infrastructure more complex than a LAMP webserver cluster. And it's hard to find a senior sysadmin who has enough years of experience to understand and troubleshoot…

It cracks me up everytime I talk to some very competent and senior devs who have zero knowledge of hardware - cloud has spoiled us!

Also the amount of devs who have had to work in shops with really crappy on prem infrastructure setups is also amazing - I guess I have just been lucky to work at places with solid infra

Re: DevOps is broken

#130

Post by henning » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 4:14 PM UTC

> In production, we are running in containers, but developing in the container is too slow, so the team leans towards asdf and a README full of stuff to copy, paste, and pray. During a sprint, an engineer adds convert (ImageMagick) to the mix to support manipulating images and forgets to update the Dockerfile, and then production goes down.

Wow, it's like you can prove anything with a contrived example!