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San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

sfchronicle.com

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Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#391
post #350
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a right-wing dystopia?" Seems like you'd prefer to redefine what it means to be left or right wing rather than admit that this is the outcome of left-wing governance. The specific issues here are: tight control over building standards leading to red tape; high levels of process to ensure community review and involvement; paying more than market price for labor in order to support unions as a political value; support…

I assumed it was an attempt at ideologically shirking accountability for the outcomes involved in elected officials doing what they were elected to do.

Could it be they meant a dystopia as right-wing might view or describe it?

As in "I'm right-wing; this is my idea of what a dystopia would be; SF seems like that."

Rather than "this dystopia is the result of right-wing policies." which clearly doesn't fit the facts, eh?

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#392
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF and Oakland have both had problems with fires in encampments. I'm betting the... let's call them guerilla housing efforts generally don't measure up on fire safety.

It seems that should be weighed against no home at all.

How do you weigh incipient death-by-fire-with-major-public-hazards against other options? I have no idea how you'd do it or how you'd weight other options.

Basically, how many avoidable deaths by fire are you willing to sign off on with this justification?

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#393
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved from Canada to what I thought was progressive SF bay area, not so much, very conservative on many issues.

The bay area is 'conservative' on issues that actual American conservatives are not very conservative on. For example, bay area people seem to hate building housing, whereas most red states are building like crazy.

Conservatives say they love cars but they hate it when I drive my car*

You have to evaluate the context of the action. "not building stuff" and "building stuff" can both be conservative at different places or times.

* I drive on the sidewalk

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#394
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red tape and nimbyism is hard to imagine from what I see of SFO in books, it seems like the most anti-diversity thing you can do. Can anybody from SFO relate their experience? Hard to tell these days what is editorial bias or sensationalism and what is true.

You're right. I used to work there. Hated the experience, but I can see why it's like that. SF was always dense. At some point, all these tech companies moved in, and it became what I call a "commuter city" where a huge proportion of people there during the day don't actually live there or necessarily want to be there. It also shifted the culture, probably for the worse. Of course many living there beforehand might n…

“The NIMBYs basically lost” feels like it’s true in a lot of Northern California. Out in Tracy, a local lawyer (who had an office but not a residence within city limits) got a residential growth restriction on the ballot and passed circa 2000. The city took it to court, it was upheld after a few years, essentially zero residential development went on in the lead up to the ‘08 recession because the city had allowed “too many” houses to be built per the terms of the RGA restriction…

Fast forward 20 years later, the town grew substantially anyway, within the terms of the restriction. And all the problems that the lawyer and his supporters said their restriction would prevent happened. Traffic, densification (loss of “small town” feel), escalating housing prices, a majority commuter population… and much less of an escape valve to fix it all. The NIMBYs basically lost. And it has a knock-on effect, because families pushed into commuting to support themselves have to look even further out from their Bay Area jobs to find an affordable places. But the same lawyer still shows up to city council and planning commission meetings to remind everybody about how close they are to the limits on how many houses can be built this year.

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#395
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red tape and nimbyism is hard to imagine from what I see of SFO in books, it seems like the most anti-diversity thing you can do. Can anybody from SFO relate their experience? Hard to tell these days what is editorial bias or sensationalism and what is true.

Most people that own a $2 million home don't want a toilet for homeless people in front of their house.

For 2MM you get 1.5 baths!!!

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#396
Any actual SF residents in this thread? I’m seeing a lot of very authoritative posts coming from places of ignorance. One person even called it a “right wing dystopia”.

Here’s the bottom line. The problems we are trying to solve in SF are hard. This place is fully developed. No way around that. Is SF perfect? No, not at all. But damn if this city doesn’t try its hardest, moreso than almost any other city I know of. We could easily sweep away the problems tourists complain about, do a little fascism, and make all these “problems” go away… by ignoring the humanity behind them. But we don’t. Instead we keep looking the problem in the eye and trying to solve it at a systemic level, as best a super dense 7x7km “island” possibly can.

I would love to hear actual solutions from people who say they could do it better, but I am not holding my breath. They’re usually like people claiming P != NP because “well, obviously”…

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there are two SF's - the one that other people write about on 6th Street and the tenderloin, and then the one I visit west of that which is one of the most beautiful and vibrant American cities I have ever spent time in.

I think you need to be a bit desensitized to problems that are visible all over the city (e.g. trash under and along freeways etc) for that to not be the memory that sticks rather than the beauty. It is like SF needs a “clean up the city volunteer day” once a month that is broadly attended.

In my experience, empathy is a much better solution for these kinds of emotional reactions than desensitization.

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#398
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Replace "right" with "those who doesn't want to do the right thing" and most political speech kinda makes more sense. >The Left/Right split of viewing politics is a false dichotomy that made sense only about a century after the French Revolution, in France. I don't think that's a fair characterization. I don't think people affiliate with a certain party seeking to "not do the right thing". Saying it is a false dicho…

It is not meant (I'd guess) as a characterization for people, but as a way to explain/read the words left and right, especially when one is criticizing the right (i.e.: right is used mostly as a synonym for bad, for some people)

This comment makes more sense in that context, thanks for breaking it down for me. I don't know how we can have a meeting of the minds while people use the term for others as a pejorative. I hope it gets worked out some day when we mature as a species and global community.

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#399
post #283
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF is governed mostly by the people who live there. The core of the problem is that SF has spent decades investing in giving every person, block, and neighborhood ways to participate in planning and changes. Generally this means giving out some kind of veto. So when the time comes to do something "Yes, but do it somewhere else" is the predominant response. To put it another way - everybody wants more shelters for the…

Thank you for your perspective on this. In my locale, this type of thing is hard to imagine, we'll feed anybody who can hold a fork here. We have almost zero resources for indigents here, so homeless and others without are a bit rare. What are the resources (aside from this restroom) afforded to those without, near SFO? I'm tempted to think about this time when a local made a habit of feeding the deer, eventually the…

I think we need to also keep things into perspective, there are an estimated 8k homeless in San Francisco, about 1% of its population.

It seems most of those are caused by just poverty, not able to afford living expenses pushed people to the streets.

Some amount of them are coming from other cities who get rid of their homeless by sending them to cities like San Francisco, but Sam Francisco also sometimes send homeless away similarly, this happens all over the US, as a kind of way to spread it out more evenly so it's not as visible in any given place.

The fundamental issues of poverty are hard to solve, obviously, every country, city, nation, has always struggled with this. It's also a little more complicated due to some of the homeless also suffering from mental illness or drug addiction, that doesn't always make them qualified to even work, so it's like poverty mixed with what to do with the people that can't contribute to the work force as effectively.

There's also the case of temperate climate, that's pretty attractive to people who live in the streets, but it's also convenient for a city, if homeless are dying of frost bites or heat, you might feel more compelled to give them shelter, but when outdoor tents suffice you might instead choose to shelter them outside like that and just keep moving them around so they don't stay to the same place too long for the neighbors to complain.

I've heard San Francisco has a policy that when they give shelter, it has to be a full apartment with social service support, whereas New York and other cities go for more warehouse shelters, beds in a big room. The former is nicer to people that get to have access to them, but it hasn't scaled, whereas as the latter isn't as nice but has had more success actually sheltering them and hiding them from view I guess.

Re: San Francisco is spending $1.7M on one public toilet

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I used to work there. Hated the experience, but I can see why it's like that. SF was always dense. At some point, all these tech companies moved in, and it became what I call a "commuter city" where a huge proportion of people there during the day don't actually live there or necessarily want to be there. It also shifted the culture, probably for the worse. Of course many living there beforehand might n…

> No public restrooms, no chairs in Starbucks, covers on everything in Walgreens, ID requirements to enter stuff, you get the idea. There's no obvious solution to that. Is this seriously the reality of SF? Never been there. If yes, that's pretty bad and degrades the city in some aspects to 3rd world place. But then again I am in Europe, many things like crazy homeless people I saw often in LA are unheard of here. Wha…

You pay for something, then you’re allowed to use the bathrooms.
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