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DevOps is broken

blog.massdriver.cloud

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Re: DevOps is broken

#51

Post by lolinder »

lucasyvas wrote: post #11
counttheforks wrote: post #4

> The problem is most engineers don’t want to do operations work. There's your problem. You have people who build stuff without caring where and how it runs. Recipe for disaster.

It is more nuanced. I care, but my skillset demands I spend more time on the Development side, so Operations must take the backseat in my mind because of this incentive structure. Asking one person to do two (actually three) job functions is a scam. Most developers have to do Frontend, Backend, and Ops. These have wildly different mindsets and feedback loops and not enough time exists. Don't hate the player, hate the…

> Asking one person to do two (actually three) job functions is a scam.

The word "scam" is overused. It's a scam if it was a bait-and-switch. It's not a scam if it was advertised this way up front. In the latter case it's just a job whose description you don't like.

Re: DevOps is broken

#52

Post by Test0129 »

mikkergp wrote: post #40
Test0129 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. I want to develop code. I don't want to become an AWS/S3/Github/Jenkins/Action/terraform/etc expert. I know enough of this to be dangerous but not at a level that passes as professional. Yet I am regularly tasked with maintaining the full deployment of code. There's a reason to have a team of people doing this "DevOps" work. Just like we have a team of people who do SRE. It creates a standard and…

It just doesn't work for the most part. Maybe as an Ops person, I just want to do Ops, I don't want to have to understand your code, but Lambda has specific limitations on how long code can run for. I can't allocate CPU and Memory resources in Kubernetes without a deep understanding of the application. S3 has limitations on how files can be distributed and accessed. Integrating with CI gets complicated quickly and re…

At companies I've worked for where they actually do this the DevOps people are generally assigned to a team. So you might have 10 developers on a project, and one guy managing just the devops exactly to solve this problem. In smaller companies/etc I can see where this is a problem. I agree, and there's nothing wrong with knowledge sharing. This could even be as simple as having PR descriptions including benchmarks/code/etc and making sure the devops people make their points clear during design/planning.

In theory, devops shouldn't be responsible for maintaining the performance of code. The specification should say what it should run on, the devops guys set up a pipeline and manage that thing, and the developers are the ones taking heat for not hitting that goal. If devops guys are taking the heat for that it sounds more like cost-cutting measures flowing the other direction.

Re: DevOps is broken

#55

Post by debacle »

travisgriggs wrote: post #34

I have bewilderingly tried to discern why software development continues to grow more and more complex. It wasn’t always like this. There was a time when we talked about languages and OSes and libraries as if they made a difference on how much you could get done with as little people and cognitive load as possible (the claims were very much overrated, but the point was we acted like it mattered). And then it started…

Because you have, in 90 (99?) percent of instances a smart person (probably IQ 120+) doing a stupid menial job that requires a level of competence that only someone smart can provide.

So to prevent themselves from ending it all, they invent things to do to keep themselves sane while they churn out CRUD apps all day long for decades. Sometimes you get truly amazing software, but most of the times it's just reinventing the wheel, but worse.

Even worse, some of them become infatuated with doing things "Like Google," and errant CTOs enable them, leading to a 6 person team supporting a piece of software that could be replaced with WordPress, to the betterment of the primary stakeholder.

I've been consulting for over a decade now. The number of times a potential client has told me they've spent into the six figures (or eight) for something that free software does out of the box but better is depressing. The worst part? I usually can't convince that person they've been absolutely swindled, and so I have to let them keep on their merry way.

Re: DevOps is broken

#56

Post by shadowgovt »

This echoes the philosophy of Google Site Reliability Engineering, which (this is key) is an engineering discipline.

The job of DevOps is not to close tickets. That'd be like driving a car by shouting directions at someone lying on the floorboards holding a wrench to the steering pinion.

The job of DevOps is to build a steering wheel (and ideally, teach SWEs how to drive... at least enough that they understand what a "road" is and why it's a pleasant experience for everyone if you stay on it. If the road doesn't go where they need to be, then it's time to file a ticket, but that ticket had better be "Build a new road," not "Offroad this one car to the cabin in the woods and call it a job well done").

The raw hardware of an enterprise deployment is so flexible it solves nobody's problem. DevOps is in the business of writing the operating system for a mega-computer physically represented by hundreds to possibly millions of heterogeneous computers. It's a process of continuous growth to make that work.

Re: DevOps is broken

#57

Post by [deleted] »

dijit wrote: post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

[deleted]

Re: DevOps is broken

#58

Post by rubyist5eva »

"devops" is just when developers do operations, and most developers generally don't want to because they are more interesting in writing software. If your job is just to manage infrastructure and you use terraform, you're still just a sysadmin. It's a "boring" job but someone has to do it.

Re: DevOps is broken

#60

Post by calvinmorrison »

dijit wrote: post #17

I’ve long held this opinion but I consistently get drowned out. DevOps has different meaning depending on who you’re talking to, even some definitions that appear similar are different in nuanced but important ways. All “devops” as a job title has done has muddy responsibilities and given many folks the wrong impression of what an operations discipline should be. There is also a lot of rewriting of history that gets…

DevOps to me is all about bridging what used to be a huge gap between operations and development. Developers need to know top 10 OWASP. One cannot simply say "it works locally". Ops people need to understand how your tools and programs work at a high level at minimum.
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