Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister • Hacker News Board

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#331

Post by tomp » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

Gordonjcp wrote: post #267

tomp wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's time for an early General Election. Every trace of the Tories must be obliterated. Sounds like completely unbiased opinion. /s More seriously, I'm only interested in hearing the arguments for a general election from nominal conservative (Tory) supporters. All arguments from leftists are just "we want to win" in disguise so are completely untrustworthy. From what I understand of UK politics, Johnson won the las…

It's an extremely biased opinion, and I make no apologies. I think every single living member of every Tory cabinet present and past should be strung up in Parliament Square. I'm not in any sense unclear about my views on them. We have had twelve years of disastrous Tory austerity that has comprehensively destroyed the UK's economy. What's the plan? Let them keep trying until they get something right? How long is it…

This viewpoint is both evil (literally wanting to kill people... like the "best" politicians of the 20th century! /s) and delusional (UK had approximately 0 GDP growth since 2010, like other main European countries - so I doubt it was Brexit or Tories)

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPDPC@WEO/DEU/FRA/...

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#332

Post by bearmode » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:16 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #244

hairofadog wrote: post #90

I know this topic is important in substance and the thing I'm about to say is an aesthetic issue, but as an American watching this unfold I have admired the Brits for the sense of heart that still seems to be present in their politics. I'm referring to the parliamentary sessions in which, even though they're savagely roasting each other, they're doing in a way that feels somehow good-hearted and doesn't lay bare the…

I have spent very little time (maybe a couple months in my whole life) in the UK, but when I go it definitely feels to me like Britons feel a much keener sense of the Commons there than we do here in the US. It's not just you. It's how what you do affects other people. This is a better way to live than the "I got mine, fuck you" which seems more common in the US.

>This is a better way to live than the "I got mine, fuck you" which seems more common in the US.

This is also exceptionally common in the UK. There's a reason the Brexit vote passed, and there's a reason people voted so strongly for right-wing parties over the last 12 years.

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#333

Post by permo-w » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #119

hairofadog wrote: post #90

I know this topic is important in substance and the thing I'm about to say is an aesthetic issue, but as an American watching this unfold I have admired the Brits for the sense of heart that still seems to be present in their politics. I'm referring to the parliamentary sessions in which, even though they're savagely roasting each other, they're doing in a way that feels somehow good-hearted and doesn't lay bare the…

> they're doing in a way that feels somehow good-hearted and doesn't lay bare the naked resentment and hatred that seems to be all we have left in the USA It's nice that it looks this way, but the different parties and their supporters in the UK absolutely hate each other. Front-bench party members now routinely and openly using words like 'scum' and 'detest' to talk about their colleagues on the other side. I don't…

Nicola Sturgeon said that she detests the Tories. her own party (the Scottish National Party, whose central goal is Scottish independence) distanced themselves from those comments. Labour are not saying things like this. the Lib Dems are not saying things like this. and the Tories themselves aren’t saying things like this either

this is the exception not the rule, and as evidence of this, it’s something that’s been turned over and over in the (especially right-wing) media for weeks now

the two MPs killed were killed by Islamic and right-wing extremists, respectively. this has no bearing on how the main parties treat each other

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#334

Post by pc86 » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

netrus wrote: post #309

pc86 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading? In this economy? The gall! No offense but if the idea of finding 5 candidates you can feel comfortable voting for is too much work, you shouldn't be voting.

Right or wrong, it is fair to assume many will cast their vote without doing the reading in such a system. Speaking from a German perspective, I sometimes think how inefficient it is to count 60M votes - just counting 1M votes will give you the exact same result, iff you get the sampling right. What if we could choose a subset of 1% of citizens at random for every election (still far too many to directly bribe), givi…

Is there a way to guarantee that you "just get the sampling right?" Even if there is, is it possible to explain it to someone with a high school education such that they understand it?

Even if you could do both of those, will it hold up when the populist candidate loses and starts railing about how they have so much support, the best support, and the election was stolen from them by the elite-chosen sample?

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#335

Post by pfdietz » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #317

thebooktocome wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cursory glance at the various Wikipedia lists of politicians assassinated in either country rebuts your last point. US political discourse is vastly more hostile than you give it credit for, as well. Veiled death threats (shooting pictures of opponents, burning in effigy, etc.) are increasingly common, particularly on the conservative side.

> A cursory glance at the various Wikipedia lists of politicians assassinated in either country rebuts your last point. Huh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Congress... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_MPs_killed_in_... UK 3 in last 30 years, US 2. For a US population of 40x larger, and easier access to guns.

> 40x larger

What.

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#336

Post by bearmode » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #324

bearmode wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be clear here: there was a left-winger killed for trying to make the country a better place, and a right-winger killed by an ISIS sympathiser (literally no reason to think this MP was targeted for his party)

> Let's be clear here No, let's not try to dog-whistle one as acceptable and the other as not. That's exactly the thing I'm talking about.

It does, but the comment made it sound as if multiple MPs on different sides were targeted because of their political affiliations. In reality, only one was. I just felt that needed to be clarified.

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#337

Post by HillRat » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

hairofadog wrote: post #90

I know this topic is important in substance and the thing I'm about to say is an aesthetic issue, but as an American watching this unfold I have admired the Brits for the sense of heart that still seems to be present in their politics. I'm referring to the parliamentary sessions in which, even though they're savagely roasting each other, they're doing in a way that feels somehow good-hearted and doesn't lay bare the…

Look past the veneer and you'll see plenty of ugliness in UK politics -- just a few days ago the (now former) Home Secretary was snarling about her plans to fit up "Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati" with ankle monitors and house arrests. Backsliding into invective, authoritarianism, and radicalism seems to be a commonality across Western democracies these days.

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#338

Post by cee_el123 » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

hairofadog wrote: post #90

I know this topic is important in substance and the thing I'm about to say is an aesthetic issue, but as an American watching this unfold I have admired the Brits for the sense of heart that still seems to be present in their politics. I'm referring to the parliamentary sessions in which, even though they're savagely roasting each other, they're doing in a way that feels somehow good-hearted and doesn't lay bare the…

Could it have anything to do with the fact that the UK is a much older democracy ? ( the first English parliament was called in 1295 )

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#339

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

permo-w wrote: post #333

chrisseaton wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're doing in a way that feels somehow good-hearted and doesn't lay bare the naked resentment and hatred that seems to be all we have left in the USA It's nice that it looks this way, but the different parties and their supporters in the UK absolutely hate each other. Front-bench party members now routinely and openly using words like 'scum' and 'detest' to talk about their colleagues on the other side. I don't…

Nicola Sturgeon said that she detests the Tories. her own party (the Scottish National Party, whose central goal is Scottish independence) distanced themselves from those comments. Labour are not saying things like this. the Lib Dems are not saying things like this. and the Tories themselves aren’t saying things like this either this is the exception not the rule, and as evidence of this, it’s something that’s been t…

> Labour are not saying things like this.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/26/angela-rayn...

Re: Liz Truss resigns as UK prime minister

#340

Post by smcl » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 2:19 PM UTC

Aromasin wrote: post #209

Gordonjcp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will be the fourth unelected PM in six years (okay, Boris Johnson did actually win a GE after being foisted upon us, if you think that counts). It's time for an early General Election. This lot need to go. Every trace of the Tories must be obliterated. The hilarious part is, the way that polling stands right now, a General Election would result in a strong Labour majority with the Scottish National Party in oppo…

To say they have not been elected is a complete falsification of our parliamentary system. The UK general populace has never voted for a PM. Party members do, and every single prime minister (bar some few exceptions) have been elected by their Party in some way, shape, or form. The four PMs you mention were voted into power by Conservative voters. Conservative members decide who to lead their party, not the anyone el…

Ah come on, when someone says this everyone knows what is meant and that when it happens there's a risk you could end up with a prime minister who is popular within the party but disliked by the electorate (Gordon Brown or Liz Truss).

So yeah you don't vote for a PM ... but there's a clear, well-understood difference between being the leader and the very visible face of your party when it wins the general election, and winning in one constituency then charming enough party members to become PM a couple of years after the General Election.