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We are still early with the cloud

erikbern.com

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Re: We are still early with the cloud

#51

Post by gwm83 »

hinkley wrote: post #30
gumby wrote: post #7

It's crazy and destructive that we are still using the unix paradigm in the cloud. In the 70s we have transparent network fileststems, and by the 80s I had a more advanced cloud-native environment at PARC than is available today.* The Lispms were not quite as cloud native as that, but still you could have the impression that you just sat down at a terminal and had immediate window into an underlying "cloud" reality,…

People forget that a good deal of “cloud” logic existed in a form on mainframes as well.

amen, and those principles still serve us well today. software developers are still as bad at writing code, maybe worse.

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#52

Post by hulitu »

mgraczyk wrote: post #34

Interestingly, at Google the typical developer workflow (google3) is very cloud native. Most devs write code in VS code in the browser. Many (most?) devs don't have a physical desktop any more, just a cloud VM. The code lives in a network mounted filesystem containing a repository. The repository is hosted remotely (everyone can see edits you make to any file nearly immediately). Builds are done remotely with a share…

> Many (most?) devs don't have a physical desktop any more,

That would explain the (bad) design of their software.

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#54

Post by gwm83 »

crazygringo wrote: post #11
gumby wrote: post #7

It's crazy and destructive that we are still using the unix paradigm in the cloud. In the 70s we have transparent network fileststems, and by the 80s I had a more advanced cloud-native environment at PARC than is available today.* The Lispms were not quite as cloud native as that, but still you could have the impression that you just sat down at a terminal and had immediate window into an underlying "cloud" reality,…

S3 is a transparent network filesystem. Unix is only the paradigm for computing servers. Which makes sense because different apps have wildly different ways of scaling. There's no effective paradigm for abstracting away 1,000's of CPUs in a general purpose way. I really don't have any idea what you're looking for here, that is possible, that cloud services don't already do.

S3, yes a network accessible FS. Unix - only is a telling word - it is the /defining/ paradigm for that. Is there a better one yet? 1000 CPUs? I mean, uh Hadoop, spark, etc etc. What?

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#55

Post by verisimilitudes »

gwm83 wrote: post #50
verisimilitudes wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Okay, tell me how you do it much better in k8s

I don't use k8s or whatever garbage gets thrown around nowadays.

I well remember my disgust when I learned AWS was just using UNIX virtual machines or whatever, rather than something simple, such as allowing people to run little functions floating in the void. I know nothing about AWS, but I've not been mistaken, right?

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#56

Post by imwillofficial »

gumby wrote: post #7

It's crazy and destructive that we are still using the unix paradigm in the cloud. In the 70s we have transparent network fileststems, and by the 80s I had a more advanced cloud-native environment at PARC than is available today.* The Lispms were not quite as cloud native as that, but still you could have the impression that you just sat down at a terminal and had immediate window into an underlying "cloud" reality,…

“by the 80s I had a more advanced cloud-native environment at PARC than is available today.*”

This statement is entirely false as admired in your footnote.

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#57

Post by mgraczyk »

hulitu wrote: post #52
mgraczyk wrote: post #34

Interestingly, at Google the typical developer workflow (google3) is very cloud native. Most devs write code in VS code in the browser. Many (most?) devs don't have a physical desktop any more, just a cloud VM. The code lives in a network mounted filesystem containing a repository. The repository is hosted remotely (everyone can see edits you make to any file nearly immediately). Builds are done remotely with a share…

> Many (most?) devs don't have a physical desktop any more, That would explain the (bad) design of their software.

What? Doesn't even make sense. Why would lacking a physical desktop cause developers to make bad software?

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#58

Post by gonehome »

gumby wrote: post #7

It's crazy and destructive that we are still using the unix paradigm in the cloud. In the 70s we have transparent network fileststems, and by the 80s I had a more advanced cloud-native environment at PARC than is available today.* The Lispms were not quite as cloud native as that, but still you could have the impression that you just sat down at a terminal and had immediate window into an underlying "cloud" reality,…

Have you heard of urbit?

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#59

Post by imwillofficial »

gwm83 wrote: post #54
crazygringo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S3 is a transparent network filesystem. Unix is only the paradigm for computing servers. Which makes sense because different apps have wildly different ways of scaling. There's no effective paradigm for abstracting away 1,000's of CPUs in a general purpose way. I really don't have any idea what you're looking for here, that is possible, that cloud services don't already do.

S3, yes a network accessible FS. Unix - only is a telling word - it is the /defining/ paradigm for that. Is there a better one yet? 1000 CPUs? I mean, uh Hadoop, spark, etc etc. What?

No post body was provided.

Re: We are still early with the cloud

#60

Post by gwm83 »

verisimilitudes wrote: post #55
gwm83 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, tell me how you do it much better in k8s

I don't use k8s or whatever garbage gets thrown around nowadays. I well remember my disgust when I learned AWS was just using UNIX virtual machines or whatever, rather than something simple, such as allowing people to run little functions floating in the void. I know nothing about AWS, but I've not been mistaken, right?

Well AWS has been quite clever, using both Xen originally and also now KVM VMs, but everything else is based on that yeah. But that's gotten really complex over the years. They now use a container execution environment called firecracker or something that is open sourced and might be totally separate from their virtualized environment - or at least on top of it where they do let you just run little jams. Cloud isn't bad, I just mean you do have to transfer octets somehow from exec to exec. There are more and less efficient ways of doing it, and also more and less secure ways too - and abstract ways. Not all bad.
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