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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#351

Post by lynndotpy »

z9znz wrote: post #298
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

> remarkably condescending I suspect there are two big difference between OP and many of the readers here. At least for sure, Berlin vs most major US cities is night and day different in terms of commute and enjoyment opportunity. Berlin is a fun city full of things to do, places to eat, and clubs. Plus it's all accessible without a car. Meanwhile, in the US, it's usually a very different story. Doing something after…

This is my experience. I’m working from home, but the commute is 2.5h round trip, driving. That’s time, money, energy, and risk for tenuous benefits.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#352

Post by bodge5000 »

cgearhart wrote: post #319
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

> If what makes you happy is a condition in which someone else is unhappy, that person is unlikely to react well. I really hate zoom meetings. Unfortunately if everyone just does whatever they want, then even the in-person meetings get dragged onto zoom because there’s at least a few people who are remote and need to dial in. Early on as we returned to office we even wound up taking a lot of meetings in the office ov…

> “Everyone do whatever you want” as a WFH/WFO policy is kinda like “everyone do whatever you want” as a “no peeing in the swimming pool” policy.

Kind of, but I dont really think the analogy works because if you flip it around its just as bad. "Everyone has to swim in the piss pool because I want to piss in the pool, but also want people to swim with". That doesn't sound agreeable either. "Nobodies allowed to piss in the pool" sounds good, but then circling back to it being an analogy, there needs to be a common consensus on which one is the piss-pool and which one is the clean pool, and there clearly isn't one.

> On the contrary, as my preference is for hybrid flexibility it often seems like the most vocal WFH proponents would like to strong-arm every business to be full-WFH

Depends on your definition of hybrid. To some it means you have some days in the office, some days from home, and for a lot of WFH folks (myself included), this is just as bad as WFO. If you mean people are kicking off because your allowed to work from an office but don't have to, I'll admit thats bad but its not something I've ever seen myself. I can't see the logic to it.

> The full WFH folks can look for companies that do that; the WFO folks can look for that; and the hybrid folks can look for that

Seems absolutely fair to me, though obviously for that to work, if people leave/don't take a job because it doesn't match their WHX preference, that shouldn't be an issue.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#355

Post by mufty »

Contest matter as I have learnt. I held a similar opinion to yours sometime back. But like most things in life it’s all about trade offs.

My previous role had a hybrid policy WFH 3 days and then from the office. To a large extent it really didn’t matter where you worked, so long as work got done. I however rarely WFH. My office was about a 15 minute walk from my where I lived, that commute was never a challenge for me. I even used different routes sometimes just to walk a bit more. I did enjoy the occasional developer discussions as well, I was almost always in the office.

Fast forward working for new company now and I hated commuting to work. Having to sit through traffic is a complete waste of my time imo. After a few weeks I had renegotiate my schedule with my employer. If WFO becomes a hustle in doesn’t benefit any party.

Getting work done should be more important than being at work. Employers should be able to trust that employees will execute. Also always being at the office wouldn’t save my bum if my employer wants me gone. People should have the peace of mind needed to work.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#356

Post by AlwaysRock »

asdadsdad wrote: post #254

Oh my - I've been waiting to hear this since forever, and you couldn't have said it better. I feel exactly the same way, and I feel like specially the younger tech workers are losing a big chunk of what it means to build work relationships (which are some of the best), and to connect with people. I don't know how to fix it as like you said, most people will scream when you mention work from office/

> younger tech workers are losing a big chunk of what it means to build work relationships (which are some of the best)

I dont want to judge but its really hard not to if you see work relationships as some of the best relationships available.

They are absolutely relationships that are formed from forced repeated interaction. Maybe I have had a few co workers who I would have naturally become friends with outside of work in the past but I can count those on one hand. If the only reason I am friends with someone is because we are both forced to see each other multiple times a day five times a week then its not a good relationship. Maybe this is a young person thing? A type A person thing?

Actual friends, family, sig others, hell even casual acquaintances that I see around town that can develop into actual friendships are all more valuable than work friends.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#357

Post by un3n »

throwaway294566 wrote: post #56

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts intro…

Well said, I completely agree.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#358

Post by tomtheelder »

cube2222 wrote: post #219
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

> Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. I partially disagree. Such hybrid situations often end up being office-first, meaning that WFH folks have a harder time i.e. participating in meetings. That said, if the company is remote-first but also has offices, then that is optimal, should make everybody comfortable, and allows everybody to p…

I agree with your first point about remote workers in an office-first org, but I disagree with this:

> That said, if the company is remote-first but also has offices, then that is optimal, should make everybody comfortable, and allows everybody to pick their choice.

Those who want WFO are really asking for consistent in person work and collaboration. If you're going to an office, and there's few people there, and every meeting is a video call, and your team's work style is async then you are not getting an office experience- you are doing remote work from somewhere that isn't your house.

I just see the only satisfying outcome here being one in which there are some remote orgs and some office based orgs, and they largely don't mix. Structured hybrid models also make sense, but only if they are quite formalized (eg: in office M-W).

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#359

Post by calmoo »

shubb wrote: post #30
closewith wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.

Ireland is a special case because its economy revolves around tax avoidance. As a multinational you credit your Irish division with all your European profits in your financials and claim the German operation is making a big loss - moving your tax burden to Ireland where it can be taxed cheaply or moved to tax havens. This relies on doing certain finishing work in Ireland so that all the companies IP and operations ca…

Sure, a lot of foreign investment in Ireland has to do with tax loopholes, but you're not answering the question fully here. Tech companies also like Ireland because it has a large, highly-educated fluent English speaking workforce. We also have a high cost of living here, which contributes to the higher salaries. Ireland is not really a special case - London doesn't have the same tax implications yet it has similar (if not higher) tech salaries compared to Dublin.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#360

Post by tomtheelder »

bodge5000 wrote: post #169
shiftpgdn wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on a team that has a mandatory "in-person" day twice a month. This seems to be the best balance for everyone as it's just infrequent enough to not feel like a grind but frequent enough to keep everyone moving in the same direction.

Given the choice, I'd never take a hybrid role. It means I still need to keep the "infrastructure" needed to get to the office (eg a car, public transport around me is terrible), but it sits unused 90% of the time. I can't get properly comfortable working at home or in the office because I'm constantly in between the two. Its just not for me.

I'd have to imagine that the universe of people who have terrible public transit around them yet don't own a car for day to day life has to be very small. I recognize your situation, but surely you are an edge case here.
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