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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#211
post #87

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

> Need to get in touch with Bill? Just stroll over to his desk.

Sorry to be flippant, but to me this is one of the worst parts of office life summed up in one statement. The bar for other people to carelessly interrupt you can be unbelievably low sometimes.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#212
My main gripe with working from the office was:

1. The daily commute, especially commuting with a large amount of people at the same time 2. Having to live in a city I don't want to live in with ridiculous rent 3. Having to be in the office when I don't need to be there and do busywork that was more tiring than real work

I think Hybrid is a decent model for most and very natural. I also think there's more space for satellite offices at major cities and interval-based offsites or informal work trips and syncs.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#213

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

Work is a third of our life, and it seems reasonable that many people would want social interaction during that time. Further, at least in the workplace I had before Covid, people could work from home as needed, or even part time, depending on their management. Granted this was for IT, not for the whole company though. You think WFH is every individuals choice in this new world. It isn’t. The last place I worked had…

> The last place I worked had 25,000 people on its main campus. Three gyms, three coffee shops, four cafeterias and more square footage than the pentagon.

I interviewed at a place like this, with all the in-site amenities. They were particularly proud of offering breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day to the staff. As I finished my last round of interviews, it became obvious that they offered this because they expected everyone to be there for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day.

I did not accept the offer, and I have no regrets.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#214
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can literally flip the O and H and change the “what makes me happy” part to get the opposite side’s point of view.

> You can literally flip the O and H and change the “what makes me happy” part to get the opposite side’s point of view. No. The points of view are not equal and opposite. Some people who advocate WFO do so because they just want to work in an office (for various reaons) and they don't care how many co-workers do the same. But others want other people to also be present in the office to create the environment that th…

> People who advocate WFH have similarly varied motivations, but none of their motivations require other people to change their behaviour.

Of course it does. Some people who WFH will want things like no mixed meetings - either everyone is in the same room, or everyone is entering the meeting from their own computer - there's an example in this very thread. And even if you don't go that far, there are various smaller ways everyone must adapt their behavior to properly support hybrid work modes, just like WFO-only or WFH-only.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#215
It really depends on the person. For me, I was already remote before covid. I realized commutes really impacted my performance on the job. When I did work from the office, there were nice snacks and parties and chances to socialize and I do miss that. However, I'm not young anymore and now my life is focused around my family. The benefits of being able to spend more time with my kids at home, and to live further from a big city are worth their weight in gold. If i miss out on a joke or two, or dont go out to thai food with co workers, oh well. I have a lot of friends and social engagements outside of work, the social side of the office isnt necessary.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#216
post #168

It sounds like you're an extrovert. The tech scene tends to have more introverts, hence why this is a controversial opinion for your friend circle. I think of it like this - extroverts gain energy from social interaction, introverts lose energy from social interaction. Working in an office environment with all extroverts is great so long as the company's work doesn't require more introverts than it has available. But…

"The quiet guy who just likes listening to intelligent conversations and chiming in when they can" also misses the social interactions that happen by default in an office. Overhearing conversations about other tech stacks/problems, conversations about vacations or plans, conversations about random political/education/local/global events - and learning something from those conversations is what's missing for me. Switc…

Try coworking spaces?

I'm 50/50 type of person, I want to be left alone when I need to concentrate, but I need someone to chat with once in a while. The best job I've ever had had flexible schedule, I could clock in and out at any time or not come in at all, just had to let the team know about my plans. But the best part of that job was that I could walk to the office. 0.5h walk is so different from 0.5h sitting in a car that I wouldn't even call it commuting, it's just hanging out in the city on my way to work. It was the best and cheapest way to improve my mental well being each day.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#217
It is our unfortunate shared lot in life that we chose a profession most suited to introverted people. For some reason when I say the word introvert people get offended. I find these are these types of people are my favorite people to be around. In particular I found that they have a superpower: they can just sit there in front of a screen for absolutely hours if not days without talking to anybody and just get things done and not have to take a break to talk to somebody. When they do want to talk to you, they seem very pleasant.

My father is such a person. I wanted to be just like him so I chose his career more or less (I'm DevOps; he's a DBA). It wasn't until later that I realized I was at a disadvantage because of my extroversion relative to my peers until I landed at my previous company. The culture there was very heads-down. I had to build in other social interactions in my day in order to survive.

If you thought your friends were bad, Hacker News is 10 times worse. Another great superpower of introverts is that they tend to be excellent writers. They love writing because it turns communication, a pleasant but otherwise taxing activity, into concentration work in isolation, which is something that lends them energy. All the while being able to feel like they are connected to their peers. Meanwhile, extroverts feel more disconnected when writing by comparison. Rather than write a long email, we generally would much rather just walk over and talk to someone. For these reasons, text based communication comment boards like Hacker News are disproportionately representative of my more introverted colleagues.

I lucked out because I'm a devops engineer, which requires the ability to code and do IT but it's also really central to several teams and so requires lots of communication. So that aspect helps me get through the long hours of coding. Coding is something I enjoy, but it's a bit like scuba diving for me. I'm having fun down on the coral reef floor but every once in awhile I just have to surface and fill my tank up.

I am squarely in the crowd that wants everyone back at the office. Yes, this is not fair to those who want to stay at home, but for me it's not worth going into the office if it's just me and two other people when everyone else is still home. Fortunately at my new company there's more social interaction and there's nine people instead of two. But again, it's not useful to me who needs social interaction to go so far to an office with nobody in it. I don't care about the actual office space, I care about talking to people. Maybe that's not fair to you dear reader. I understand that. But it is what it is.

I'm hoping that the recession will kick in harder than it is now and allow the managers to start requiring people to come back in. Those who threaten to quit will make the manager's lives easier so that they don't have to lay people off. This is sort of happening at Facebook right now.

Whether a manager is an introvert or extrovert, their job is communication. It's been shown by Microsoft studies that their workloads of doubled in the pandemic even though most people's have stayed the same. This incentive to get their employees back in the office together with a recession will probably put things back to where they were eventually.

That said, I realize the cat is out of the bag. Remote work works and people know it now. Some companies have gone the opposite direction, getting rid of their office entirely. As long as there are other companies that get people back together I'll be okay.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#218

There's nothing controversial. You like working in an office. Cool. Go work in an office. I don't like working in an office. Cool. I work from home. The only thing that's changed is that we have more choice now. Like when I finally landed the first job where I didn't have to wear a tie anymore.

The problem for us office advocates is that you travel into an empty office and sit on Zoom calls anyway. Of course we shouldn't drag you into the office just to appease us, but the experience of working together is effectively not available right now.

For those of us with multiple offices, that's what it already was, except you'd fight over a call booth, be communicating over narrowband voice.

But the upsides, coffee, lunch, dinner random conversations can be achieved if you work out of any co-working space or a park bench.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#219

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

> Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy.

I partially disagree. Such hybrid situations often end up being office-first, meaning that WFH folks have a harder time i.e. participating in meetings.

That said, if the company is remote-first but also has offices, then that is optimal, should make everybody comfortable, and allows everybody to pick their choice.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#220
Sounds to me like your work wasn't just your work, but also your hobby and your social life. I do think you genuinely enjoyed that, probably even living close to what you considered your 'life'. You didn't need to 'invest' anything, you love it and would probably aspire to do it if you had to pay for it ((before you roll your eyes, there are many, many rich kids playing startup with their parents money or trust funds). Been there done that, as ave many in our early years, even though for me it wasn't startups but research, a hunger for knowledge.

But not everybody likes these lifestyle choices. And most people have 'jobs' by necessity, to make 'a living' not just for themselves, but also their family and relatives. Unlike a hobby or play, this involves doing things under constraints they do not like and can't afford to just run away from.

This does not mean they must be obviously any less good or effective at their job. I've had strict 9-5'ers that were 10x'ers, and no-life office rats that loved the place but had near 0 net contribution. I does mean that they consider a significant, if not the most part of their 'life' to be outside of 'work' or 'the office'. That 'life' was always momentously impacted by 'the office' thing, even far beyond the dreaded commute unless you sacrificed your desired living place for 'living near the office'. Anything that otherwise takes a few minutes, taken a delivery, having maintenance done, getting the kids from school and fed, was made impossible by you being physically not near.

Technological roll-outs made remote possible. The pandemic drove widespread adoption. People discovered that 'the office' was no longer a necessary evil you just had to accept. After the pandemic, not just were they not keen to return, but they started to discover that they gained so much more social options thanks to non work time having significantly boosted. (ditching a 2 hour commute does nearly double your daily free time).

So it is very natural for this to be a very sensitive topic for most. If you truly want to work on 'fixing those things instead of making them bearable', compete on a level playing field and create an office people would pay for to work at, not force them through other means.

One last point: Your 'office' will not protect you from being de-localized. Even before tele-work, the offices used to move to the lower wages whenever they could. Your skill differentiation will have to be what saves you.

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