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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#101

Post by Joker_vD »

adamhp wrote: post #87
munchausen42 wrote: post #73

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

Now throw in the fact that the workers may also have family (spouse + a little kid) living with them and present inside the house during the working hours. Suddenly, the idea to have a physically distinct place dedicated (almost) exclusively to work sounds very attractive and very sensible.

Of course, one could have a dedicated "study"/"office" room with a lock and sound proofing but that costs.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#102

Post by throwaway294566 »

samuel_backend wrote: post #70
throwaway294566 wrote: post #56

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts intro…

Honestly, I feel this is a bit of a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things. And I am downright insulted by the last sentence to be frank. Blaming shitty management on extroverted techies. Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am sure that extroverts are to blame. But not only extroverted techies. Management is almost 100% extroverts. Extroverted techies went along, repeating the party line of "watercooler talk makes us cooperate more", "I like the new open floorplan, so social" and "interruptions aren't that bad, learn to multitask and get some headphones". For examples, just read some HN about open floorplans. The introverted techs, being introverts, were less heard and mostly had no say anyways. Extroverted management and techs lacked any interest and necessary empathy to understand them. Whats more, snark and derision for the introverts, not only behind closed doors. HR and management slides praised the new culture of constant social interaction and suggested the rest should just socialize more and learn to multitask and be outgoing. Be more extroverted like us, less like you. Same from the extroverted techies, e.g. here on HN. Introverts just weren't accepted and were not heard.

So yes, I think snark is warranted and the last sentence is fair play. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, where extroverts don't like WFH, I do only treat extroverts with the same contempt I was treated with.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#103

Post by wincy »

closewith wrote: post #13
badpun wrote: post #8

> As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in business context here anyway and lower-wage countries within ±3 hours timezones abound. This has already happened and has resulted in unific…

If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.

I know when the Fortune 500 US company I worked for opened their European office they

1) chose Dublin 2) Flew over multiple well paid engineers and paid for them to live there to train the new Dublin team.

So I think because of some of the tax strategies mentioned by others US companies choose Dublin which strongly influences the salaries paid there.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#104

Post by thenerdhead »

There's only one constant in life and that's change.

It's not controversial to have an opinion. If you prefer to work in an office with a lively social atmosphere and your current work environment has changed to the point where that isn't realistic, then what prevents you from finding a new place where that is valued?

You have to find the room or virtual room you want to be in.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#107

Post by mudrockbestgirl »

thunky wrote: post #94
adamhp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

> It all doesn't sound so bad when you frame it differently I disagree, it still sounds bad. It sounds like elementary school for adults.

> It sounds like elementary school for adults.

I think that sounds pretty amazing.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#108

Post by kayodelycaon »

23B1 wrote: post #39

Why is this an either/or scenario? Wanting to be around other people is normal. Wanting to work from home is also normal. Wanting to occasionally flip between the two is normal. Employers can and should enable both.

It seems to be there aren't enough people who want to work in the office to make the office people happy.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#109

Post by mirchibajji »

samuel_backend wrote: post #70
throwaway294566 wrote: post #56

> I always saw tech as the field where a disproportionally large amount of people truly love what they do. You do confuse "loving what they do" with "being at the office" and "socializing during slack time". I do love my job but I do hate socializing with people, which is definitely not my job. That is why I'm working in IT, I don't have to socialize beyond the bare minimum to be successful. I think IT attracts intro…

Honestly, I feel this is a bit of a black-and-white view that grossly oversimplifies things. And I am downright insulted by the last sentence to be frank. Blaming shitty management on extroverted techies. Are you sure about that?

Sorry you see it this way. I agree with a lot of what the parent said. The post started the black-and-white framing - the current situation is bad, and we need to fix it.

A popular three wishes joke goes: "Three men are stranded on a desert island, when a bottle washes up on the shore. When they uncork the bottle, a genie appears and offers three wishes. The first wishes to be taken to Paris. The genie snaps his fingers, and the man suddenly finds himself standing in front of the Eiffel Tower. The second man wishes that he were in Hollywood, and with a snap of the genie's fingers, he finds himself on a Tinseltown movie set. The third man, now alone on the island, looks around and says, "I wish my friends were back."[1]

If you looking for different points of view, I would urge you to look past the trigger words.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wishes_joke

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#110

Post by throwaway4aday »

danwee wrote: post #37
benjaminwootton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you businesses can now find those same skills in a cheaper location? I'm sure they exist, but it would be a rare business that chooses to pay San Francisco, London or even Berlin wages to someone with the same skills in a much cheaper location.

I said "decent" companies. We all know most of the companies out there are not "decent".

> most of the companies out there are not "decent"

So you've defeated your own point. If most companies are willing to outsource then the majority of jobs will be outsourced. Maybe you'll be fine if you happen to work for a decent company but this still means the majority of people will be screwed.

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