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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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41–50 of 830 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#41
Kinda? I think it is the nature of the beast. I don't want to deal with mind-numbing, soul crushing data entry silliness. I want to be challenged if only to see if I am good enough to be there. I recently started a new position and as the lowest guy on the totem pole was given the most manual task they had. I just proposed automating it and, uhh, lets say it didn't go as well as I had hoped.

Send it remote ( even though I will admit, I am mildly concerned about my "price" dropping as a result ). Frankly, it would make more sense financially. I genuinely don't understand why it makes fiscal sense for me to do data entry than just about anything else. I can. And I do what is asked of me, but it can be done better.. and this is where a person like me should fit.

My only way to defend this practice is that the manual process is a weird hazing process and they ( team or manager ) want to keep it there for that purpose.

Sorry for the rambling. I think it is coffee time.

edit:

I begrudgingly obliged for a long time knowing that I currently have no leverage to say 'give me remote or I am walking'. I personally envy people, who love socializing and office life. I do like my team. Frankly, I have more in common with every single one of them than any of my previous teams, but that social circle is just not a priority for me and there are no appropriate words in the English vocabulary to describe the pure, unadulterated anger towards anyone having any kinda hand in making me get up early to commute. Younger me would have chided myself saying that I need to play the corporate game, but something changed in me after kids. And the weirdest thing is that when I tell people for any other reason than remote "no, cuz kids", no one questions that.

I hate the office. I understand it serves a purpose. But that purpose no longer serves me.

And this is why we are at a crossroads. Management can bitch and moan, but that is the new reality ( ours made a show of the recent marketwatch article ). Some of us just said "fuck it".

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#42
I felt exactly like this in my last remote working job. I was in my 20's and after 5 years of remote working I felt cut off from trends in the industry and had no one to casually talk to and build friendships with (especially when you've moved to the city for work and aren't a native to the area).

Now I'm in my 30's remote working is more of advantageous for my lifestyle (but not my waistline). I do miss the community aspect of the office.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#43
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you businesses can now find those same skills in a cheaper location? I'm sure they exist, but it would be a rare business that chooses to pay San Francisco, London or even Berlin wages to someone with the same skills in a much cheaper location.

I said "decent" companies. We all know most of the companies out there are not "decent".

The vast, vast majority of companies in the world would not pay massively over market rates to their staff.

To minimise costs and maximise profits (without exploiting anyone of course) is the raison d'etre for a business, and is in no way unethrical.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#44
It seems to me that you indeed realised that majority of the people (in your bubble) have an opposite opinion on this issue than you have, but somehow you still think that they are wrong, and you listed why they are wrong (except the few that you can sympathise with, like parents, caregivers and so on)

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy office work as well, but I realise that I'm not the youngest anymore and the world is changing, and it's not driven by my generation any more. It sucks to be a minority.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#46
I don't depend on work for my social life and never really did. If I want to hang out with people I do so with my close non-work friends, or go to an event or something else. I enjoy the people I work with but I don't aim for them to be my close friends.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#47
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the additional cost that the employer is imposed on by the state in Germany. I bet that the total cost per employee is pretty close.

> Because of the additional cost that the employer is imposed on by the state in Germany. There are similar employer taxes (at somewhat lower rates, topping out at ~11% vs ~18%), but the total cost of employment in Dublin is much higher than Berlin.

Is it though? https://blog.eurodev.com/costs-of-hiring-european-employees

Also, in Germany you have a lot of holiday (20 minimum, most companies pffer 30), 3 month notice period, 3 years parental leave (per child), pricing these in, I would always expect lower salary in Germany.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#48
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is the case, why are dev salaries in, for example, Dublin so much higher than Berlin (€115,000 vs €86,000 if Levels.fyi is to be believed)? Both are EU capitals with excellent, well-educated workforces.

Ireland is a special case because its economy revolves around tax avoidance. As a multinational you credit your Irish division with all your European profits in your financials and claim the German operation is making a big loss - moving your tax burden to Ireland where it can be taxed cheaply or moved to tax havens. This relies on doing certain finishing work in Ireland so that all the companies IP and operations ca…

You absolutely can use Dublin as an example, because the vast majority of software development jobs are not "finishing work" for engineering performed elsewhere. That's a myopic and absurd claim. Dublin is in itself an engineering hub.

Ireland is certainly a low-tax haven for companies operating in the EU, but that isn't the sole reason there are 50,000 developer roles in the city. Your sources do not support your claim.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#49
I can't help but feel these takes come from a lack of empathy; I'm the exact opposite, but I fully accept people have your view. What strikes me as odd is the incapability for the pro-in-office crew to see that they're seeking participation for what they want, for what I now see as a considerable personal cost (commute time, comfort, simply not seeing the work place as a social venture), the participation from the WFH clan is much lesser (putting up with video meetings etc.).

My social life exists outside of work, and I see "work" as an exchange of money for my time and expertise.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#50
> Many of these things that made my job much more than slaving at a digital conveyor belt seem to be gone these days. And the worst thing for me is that I feel few people relate. On the contrary, many are screaming in outrage if asked to come to the office even for a single day a week and threaten to quit.

It seems like one facet of this might be that you're more extroverted and social in regards to doing your job, whereas others prefer to work in solace or on their own terms (e.g. with a cup of cocoa in their pajamas), something about which I previously wrote: https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/remote-working-and-the-elep...

I won't hide that I very much fall into the latter category: working in person was a worse experience for me, hands down. Now, if I don't feel like talking with someone and having them interrupt me while in the middle of solving some issue, I can just ignore messages for a bit.

If they want to ask some questions, they can just write those down, or share them in a group channel for someone to pick up on what they need and discuss it, in a format that remains searchable in the future. This should also encourage asking questions better and not wasting my (or others') time in calls as much: https://quick-answers.kronis.dev/

I also personally don't always enjoy the culture of the workplace and dissociating myself from some nitpicky code reviewer who loves wasting time on pointless minutea is also better - instead of long winded discussions, I can resolve review threads in one go, leaving comments for when additional discussion is needed, instead of being held hostage in an in person conversation (a bit of an extreme example/wording, I guess).

> Have I been under some weird form of Stockholm Syndrom where I actually enjoyed something that was pure torture to most? Have a lot of people realized they don't actually like being among other people, apart from their closest friends and family?

That said, how you feel is valid. You might have had a healthier workplace than I do, maybe a better attitude, possibly a personality that is better suited for working in person, as well as one that isn't as suitable for working remotely. People's circumstances are different.

> And finally, I feel no one else is realizing that they are happily hacking away at the amazingly well-paid branch they're sitting on. As soon as a company's IT department is practically fully remote, why should they page a German wage for someone who is a face on a screen, when they can pay a fraction for that same face broadcasted from a few hundred kilometers further east or south? German is hardly used in business context here anyway and lower-wage countries within ±3 hours timezones abound.

This will probably displace some folks with varying results, however: outsourcing can lead to cheaper labor, but a plummet in code quality. Certain cultures have an expectation to say "Yes, we can do it" regardless of how feasible things are and deliver results, regardless of how bad they are, how insecure the code is, how unmaintainable it is and so on.

Of course, this will also be a net positive for some folks that would otherwise never make more than 2'000-3'000 euros per month after taxes in their own countries to escape being (comparatively) poor just because of where they live.

In situations where remote work isn't embraced, however, such initiatives (and remote working in general) would lead to pretty poor dynamics and having trouble getting things done. Some people incorrectly say that it's a problem with remote work, when in truth they have no idea how to do remote work well (and embrace async): https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/guide/

Throw in the fact that employers want more control over their employees (and sometimes to micromanage them) or perhaps make sure they're not working two jobs, or working on their own projects or whatever, or the employers wanting to underpay their workers with remote work being the scapegoat excuse and you have quite the multi faceted situation to deal with.

Personally, however, I like both the form of work, as well as no longer needing commute - right now I'm in the countryside, so I can get some fresh air, relax and play fetch with my dogs, as well as work in silent and comfortable conditions, instead of some open office.

Work events (e.g. going racing karts, playing laser tag, having a party or a boating event, some BBQ or something like that) are still very much welcome, as is occasionally showing up to office for some event/presentation/workshop.

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