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I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#111

Post by lucb1e »

mixcocam wrote: post #87

I agree with all the points mentioned. I hope this accelerates the development of signal - especially on desktop where there is still no integrated video player!!

I was amazed to learn, a few days ago, that you can send/receive SMS via Signal. It's like being able to send faxes from google hangouts; unencrypted paid messages just seems completely opposite to what the project stands for.

Which is not to say that I can't see the rationale, but I didn't know and it surprised me.

The next thing I wondered is how much work it is to maintain two entirely separate messaging systems in one app. How much did this drag them down over the years? I agree with you and hope that it can finally get Signal moving forward, there are so many missing features compared to Wire and, especially, Telegram that it is currently a pretty tough sell to move anyone away from Telegram.

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#113

Post by grey_earthling »

jbverschoor wrote: post #30
joel35 wrote: post #21

With Signal moving away from SMS, the required messaging app stack on my phone just to be able to receive everything sent do me will have to be: - Signal -> Close friends & family I've convinced to use it. - WhatsApp -> Most of my friends. - SMS -> School notifications, 2FA, shipping updates, etc. - Facebook Messenger -> Elderly relatives - Telegram -> That one relative who wants to use this instead of Signal. Is the…

I never understood Telegram. It's insecure by default, runs in a different jurisdiction. It's not even anonymous But somehow people started using it because it was "more secure" than whatsapp.

Different jurisdiction to what? :)

My UK-based employer seems nonchalant about expecting me to agree to be subject to the laws and courts of California in order to receive internal company newsletters delivered via a 3rd party.

While I agree this is harmful to the user (or unpatriotic, if you prefer), it's extremely common thanks to the state of the global economy since the 1980s.

I'd wager that 99% of people in the UK would now be unable to contact their friends and family without relying on at least 1 large U.S. company.

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#114

Post by Tor3 »

cookiengineer wrote: post #107
apexalpha wrote: post #20

I think you're forgetting the main reason: the group of people using it to communicate is really small and shrinking every year. The only large group of people who still primarily use SMS to communicate person-to-person is Android users in the USA. Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows.…

Don't forget 2FA from shitty European companies! And pizza delivery notifications! Jokes aside, I see SMS as a useless protocol; because it cannot be used for identification, and neither can anything be encrypted nor verified without another communication channel. It's also not in the power of the end user to decide whether or not their number gets reassigned, blocked, or does work at all. Most US people seem to thin…

I'm not sure what you mean about a reassigned number? Do you mean that people risk getting a new number, whether they want it or not? Because that shouldn't be an issue - I believe all of Europe (at least EU) demands that the customer can transfer their number to a new provider or whatever, whenever they want. So maybe you mean something else?

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#115

Post by Semaphor »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #105
pkorzeniewski wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Europe and use SMS only, I don't get it how having a dozen of messaging apps and remembering who uses what is better than a simple SMS that I can send to absolutely anyone with a phone..

SMS is still used in France too. > I don't get it how having a dozen of messaging apps and remembering who uses what is better than a simple SMS Indeed, especially now that Telegram is taking off by times in Europe (in Belgium / Spain / France at least Telegram is getting used by a lot of people) and that some people now refuse to use WhatsApp. In addition to appointment reminders from doctor/dentist/notary/whatever…

> Indeed, especially now that Telegram is taking off by times in Europe (in Belgium / Spain / France at least Telegram is getting used by a lot of people)

Interesting, here in Germany, almost everyone I know has Signal and WhatsApp with some people using only one of them. Telegram I encountered from one US American living here, and from people into conspiracy theories.

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#116

Post by Semaphor »

cookiengineer wrote: post #107
apexalpha wrote: post #20

I think you're forgetting the main reason: the group of people using it to communicate is really small and shrinking every year. The only large group of people who still primarily use SMS to communicate person-to-person is Android users in the USA. Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows.…

Don't forget 2FA from shitty European companies! And pizza delivery notifications! Jokes aside, I see SMS as a useless protocol; because it cannot be used for identification, and neither can anything be encrypted nor verified without another communication channel. It's also not in the power of the end user to decide whether or not their number gets reassigned, blocked, or does work at all. Most US people seem to thin…

> Most US people seem to think that it's normal to have "one" number for years on end. For the rest of the world, it's not true.

Uh, I’m from Germany and had the same mobile number for over 20 years.

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#117

Post by orthoxerox »

jakub_g wrote: post #42
rjzzleep wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is Signal people had really odd visions how to make basic functionality work. This isn't really because SMS/MMS are bad(yes they are). But there are threads in their issue tracker where Signal people would disagree with basically functionality of responding to text messages on dual sim devices. "We'll always use the Signal registered number as default". One part of this is a terrible(but working) protocol, th…

One thing you need to keep in mind is that if you want an app with strong security, the less code you have, the easier it is to achieve the goal. By definition, Signal is not going to have bells and whistles and niche features, to keep the codebase lean and easier to avoid security weaknesses. If you want an app with many features, use Telegram. (They did however ship emoji reactions in Signal because most people act…

Telegram has emoji reactions as well

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#118

Post by Beldin »

microtonal wrote: post #28
modo_mario wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMS is still rather common here in Europe. Even if a ton of people use whatsapp and such SMS is often a safe option to initiate with or something trough which you get certain kinds of automated messages like appointment reminders or verification codes.

I think that differs very much per country. The last time I have received an SMS from a human in NL must have been a decade ago. In many European countries, sending SMS was quite expensive, leading to early and very wide adoption of WhatsApp.

Definitely not per country: I regularly use SMS from NL.

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#119

Post by green_g »

Signal having SMS is the only reason for me to use it. The decision was specifically made to insist on people using their phone numbers it's rubbish to demand that and then yank this functionality.

If it doesn't support SMS I have zero reasons to use it I may as well use anything else that had less friction.

I liked your application enough to pay a reoccurring subscription, removing this functionality means I've cancelled my subscription.

Re: I asked Signal motivations for SMS removal

#120

Post by coldtea »

apexalpha wrote: post #20

I think you're forgetting the main reason: the group of people using it to communicate is really small and shrinking every year. The only large group of people who still primarily use SMS to communicate person-to-person is Android users in the USA. Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows.…

>Every other country has settled on either Telegram, WeChat, WhatsApp or FB Messenger, or other niche apps. These apps work on both iOS and Android and often also Windows. I haven't sent an SMS in probably 12 years. I don't know anyone who has.

SMS is big in Europe (yes, Europe is not a country. I just mean "dozens of countries in Europe"). All courriers have plans with SMS focus.

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