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Web 3.0 – The Great Con

davegebler.com

211–220 of 225 posts

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#211

I also think cryptocurrency is hyped & bubble. But the author is also wrong here by calling "only for criminals". Cryptocurrency were supposed to mimic decentralized cash but there are still some problem that needs fixing. > Imagine, for example, a world where you're out at a restaurant, or something, and you accidentally drop your keys. Someone else picks them up off the floor, only instead of handing them back to y…

>Just like cash whoever picks it up is there new owner & police can't do anything about it except for locking him in jail.

I hear people saying this, the problem with this thinking is that there is no actual reason for a digital payment system to be like that. It's actually one of the main drawbacks of cash and one of the major reasons not to use it. Intentionally designing a system this way doesn't improve it, it causes it to have the disadvantages of physical money (easily and irreversibly stolen) as well as the disadvantages of electronic money (easily hacked by anyone on the planet). I argue this combination makes it uniquely suitable for cyber crime, and nothing else. Nobody actually wants this combination of properties in a legitimate payment system.

And I should also state that these properties are policy choices and not really related to anything technical about Bitcoin or blockchains. Banks can also just refuse to give your money back if you get hacked, but doing so would obviously be very bad and make their customers angry. It makes no sense to condone this behavior in crypto.

>Ofcourse he will say that, JP Morgan creates money out of thin air by using fractional reserve, just like cryptocurrency. So basically bitcoin is taking away there business.

This doesn't make sense, you're going into conspiracy theories here. Yeah he said that but he also said numerous times he would take customers' money if they wanted to trade crypto, and that's exactly what he does.

>Author also misses important use like voting where we want record to be public, accountable & certifiable.

What you need there is laws, not blockchains. Electronic voting doesn't help with that and just gets in the way. Every blockchain voting system I've seen has been a total failure that's less secure and less accountable than simple paper ballots. On a more fundamental level, you can't have a voting system for ordinary people that requires them to understand how complicated microchips and algorithms and radio signals and network topologies work in order to trust the system. It's just not going to fly.

>And about the criminal part. For criminals, CASH IS STILL THE KING.

For small transactions, yes. Chalk up another failure for crypto. For large criminal transactions like ransomware and sanctions evasion, it's still crypto all the way. But this also is not for any technical reason, it's because of various policy choices to avoid applying any kind of increased scrutiny to large transactions, and also because of crypto enthusiasts having some kind of weird fixation with helping thugs and autocrats: https://news.yahoo.com/virgil-griffith-us-expert-jailed-0759...

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you write an article about Web3 technology instead of Bitcoin or vacuous crypto-influencer statements? If all of Web3 is a con, then you should have no trouble dismantling the usefulness of ENS, Aave, DAI, and Uniswap. Spending time talking about Bitcoin, Proof of Work, Bitconnect, and other unrelated issues detracts from your essay.

Those defi projects don't require much to dismantle. The entire point of them is to accumulate more crypto. That's it. And since crypto is useless, they also serve no useful purpose. The only exception you mentioned is ENS, but there isn't anything special about that. It's just a DNS system but centralized into a smart contract instead, and because it's on ethereum you have to pay gas fees in addition to the registra…

I think you misunderstand DAI. Saying the point of DAI is to accumulate crypto is like saying the point of a car is to accumulate oil. People use oil, or ETH as the gas token in this example, to drive the car, or drive the DeFi apps. You can hold DAI without holding any more ETH than is needed for transfers.

“Centralized into a [decentralized] protocol” is an oxymoron. The benefit of ENS over DNS is that there is no centralized actor that can control, censor and manipulate the namespace.

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#213

This post is mostly about Bitcoin and Proof of Work. Currently "Web3" tech is being built on Ethereum, Proof of Stake, zero-knowledge proofs, rollup sequencers, data availability sampling, and multi-party computation. The recent advances are not like the earliest iterations; a harsh critique of Bitcoin is not equivalent to the harsh critique of Web3. The post is riddled with fallacies. For example: > Imagine, for exa…

> Nobody in Web3 is suggesting you hold all of your assets in a single private key that you physically carry to a restaurant I'm not suggesting that, either. It's a metaphor. In the metaphor, we're not talking about crypto wallet keys, we're talking about actual, physical keys which open doors. But many people do of course keep all their crypto keys in a single, vulnerable location, or hand the contents of their wall…

You did suggest that, even concluding with “That's the world of cryptocurrency” to re-affirm the equivalency of the comparison.

This framing is disingenuous. Crypto proponents do not suggest holding all assets in a single key and leaving it in a vulnerable location. It would be like suggesting that investing in fine art is futile because investors might accidentally drop their Picasso painting on the way to the restaurant.

Many outspoken proponents advise against “CeFi” including centralized lending services like Celsius. Meanwhile with Aave, which is analogous to Celsius and is actually DeFi, the protocol is still doing fine and the users still have access to their funds. This goes against the general tone of your statements, and is an example of Web3 product that is actually continuing to demonstrate its effectiveness.

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#214
post #193

A lot of the arguments seem kind of bad. Just in the first paragraph: "Blockchain is the greatest technological fraud" - It's just a hashed data structure. Maybe people use it for fraud but that's like saying accounts are a fraud because someone had bad ones once. "[Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies] are functionally useless as currencies outside the realms of criminal activity and a Ponzi scheme in effect if not name for…

No, that paragraph is correct. You may be either missing some context or using a different definition of blockchain that doesn't apply to crypto and web3. All the selling points that crypto people have said about blockchains are completely false. It is just a hashed data structure but that's the point -- how is a hashed data structure going to solve inequality, minimize global energy usage, stop wars and feed the hun…

Gold bars sitting there also don't produce anything and investors rely on other investors buying for a profit. Does that mean gold is also a Ponzi scheme?

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#215
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that paragraph is correct. You may be either missing some context or using a different definition of blockchain that doesn't apply to crypto and web3. All the selling points that crypto people have said about blockchains are completely false. It is just a hashed data structure but that's the point -- how is a hashed data structure going to solve inequality, minimize global energy usage, stop wars and feed the hun…

Gold bars sitting there also don't produce anything and investors rely on other investors buying for a profit. Does that mean gold is also a Ponzi scheme?

No, gold actually has a real demand derived from legitimate commercial uses. If it didn't, and the only reason you were buying it was to try and dump it off on other investors for a profit, then it would have the properties of a Ponzi. Make sense? It isn't exactly the same as Charles Ponzi's scheme, but it is similar enough that the layperson understands what it means when you say Ponzi. There isn't any actual profit in the system, all the "profit" comes from other investors.

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those defi projects don't require much to dismantle. The entire point of them is to accumulate more crypto. That's it. And since crypto is useless, they also serve no useful purpose. The only exception you mentioned is ENS, but there isn't anything special about that. It's just a DNS system but centralized into a smart contract instead, and because it's on ethereum you have to pay gas fees in addition to the registra…

I think you misunderstand DAI. Saying the point of DAI is to accumulate crypto is like saying the point of a car is to accumulate oil. People use oil, or ETH as the gas token in this example, to drive the car, or drive the DeFi apps. You can hold DAI without holding any more ETH than is needed for transfers. “Centralized into a [decentralized] protocol” is an oxymoron. The benefit of ENS over DNS is that there is no…

>I think you misunderstand DAI. Saying the point of DAI is to accumulate crypto is like saying the point of a car is to accumulate oil.

No, I understand it perfectly. The only purpose of stablecoins is to provide liquidity in the crypto markets for these defi apps where all the trading action happens. They don't have any other purpose and there isn't any other reason to hold them. If it wasn't for the crypto markets you would just be using USD and trading against that directly. Seriously, if you go to the DAI website and you click the big "Use DAI" button it literally just takes you to another crypto investing app.

In the future please avoid falling for this trap that web3 tech pushers set. They claim there is "innovation" in the space but almost all of it is just clones of existing financial services with crypto instead of real money. The fact that there's even something call "stablecoins" should demonstrate to you how bogus this all is. The rest of cryptos are so volatile the only way they can make anything resembling a market out of it is by pegging other cryptos to the USD and doing all their trading against that. It's just adding more middlemen to reach the ultimate goal which, as always, is to eventually cash out into USD. Because everybody knows cryptos by themselves are useless for anything besides speculative gambling.

>“Centralized into a [decentralized] protocol” is an oxymoron. The benefit of ENS over DNS is that there is no centralized actor that can control, censor and manipulate the namespace.

Nope, you're wrong about this in the context of most things implemented in smart contracts. You should be extremely wary of anyone making these claims. Since the "smart contract" is actually just a piece of code, typically the smart contract will have an update mechanism that only a centralized actor can use to upload patches and updates to the code. IIRC this is still how ENS works last time I checked. Like almost everything in crypto, it's a centralized service that the authors lie about and masquerade it as decentralized.

Sometimes they'll do an even worse thing by having "governance tokens" that grant you powers to update the smart contract, and someone with a lot of money can just come in and buy all the tokens and take it over. So these "smart contracts" are not really decentralized in any sense. If anyone says "we are making this thing that can't be controlled, censored or manipulated" then that's a massive red flag.

There's also the question of why anyone actually wants that. What other industry would this be ok in? If someone had a company that made self-driving cars advertised as being "uncontrollable and uncensorable by driving laws", nobody would want that. We'd recognize that company is actually just selling unstoppable killing machines. So why do people for some bizarre reason think this is a good thing in financial markets where the super-rich already have extreme power consolidation? It makes absolutely no sense at all.

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand DAI. Saying the point of DAI is to accumulate crypto is like saying the point of a car is to accumulate oil. People use oil, or ETH as the gas token in this example, to drive the car, or drive the DeFi apps. You can hold DAI without holding any more ETH than is needed for transfers. “Centralized into a [decentralized] protocol” is an oxymoron. The benefit of ENS over DNS is that there is no…

>I think you misunderstand DAI. Saying the point of DAI is to accumulate crypto is like saying the point of a car is to accumulate oil. No, I understand it perfectly. The only purpose of stablecoins is to provide liquidity in the crypto markets for these defi apps where all the trading action happens. They don't have any other purpose and there isn't any other reason to hold them. If it wasn't for the crypto markets…

This is a long winded way of saying:

> They don't have any other purpose and there isn't any other reason to hold them.

A claim that is easily refuted. Send 1000 DAI to an individual and they can now hold a USD pegged asset non custodially, without a USD bank account, and transfer any amount to other individuals.

Smart contracts can be made immutable and locked. The ENS root multisig owners have locked .eth TLD and have minimal ability to affect any existing .eth ENS name. Since the contracts are open source, if the ENS team went rogue and against the community’s wishes, the protocol could be forked. You can read about it here: https://docs.ens.domains/frequently-asked-questions

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think you misunderstand DAI. Saying the point of DAI is to accumulate crypto is like saying the point of a car is to accumulate oil. No, I understand it perfectly. The only purpose of stablecoins is to provide liquidity in the crypto markets for these defi apps where all the trading action happens. They don't have any other purpose and there isn't any other reason to hold them. If it wasn't for the crypto markets…

This is a long winded way of saying: > They don't have any other purpose and there isn't any other reason to hold them. A claim that is easily refuted. Send 1000 DAI to an individual and they can now hold a USD pegged asset non custodially, without a USD bank account, and transfer any amount to other individuals. Smart contracts can be made immutable and locked. The ENS root multisig owners have locked .eth TLD and h…

>they can now hold a USD pegged asset non custodially

Nope, this is wrong. Any stablecoin is necessarily centralized in order to maintain the peg, in the case of DAI it has a "custodian" in the form of MakerDAO. Look it up, this is how they all work. When they say the words "non-custodial" it's a blatant lie. Everything in crypto has a custodian, some projects are just aggressive about trying to conceal them.

>Without a USD bank account, and transfer any amount to other individuals.

But this isn't a reason to hold them nor is it an innovation. You could also just do that with moneygram or a similar service, no blockchains required. The only thing you can meaningfully do with this that you can't do with another cash-only service or a bank is to trade other cryptos with it, but that also isn't even for any technical reason. If the banks decided to start exchanging cryptos directly, they could. And that would totally remove the reason for any stablecoins to exist.

This is coming back to the same problem with any of these questions like "but what about the web3 tech?" There isn't any new tech here. You just described an existing thing you can do (send money) but with some buzzwords attached. If you dig into it there's never any actual explanation as to why the "web3 tech" makes it better, because it doesn't. So please just don't ask those types of questions, find some better ones.

>Smart contracts can be made immutable and locked.

Well that isn't how ENS works. And that's a universally bad idea anyway because that means it can never get any upgrades or bug fixes ever again. It's like saying your data center is "decentralized" and therefore better because you encased it in a block of concrete so one can get in to upgrade the servers ever again. Well no, it's not, it's still centralized, you just made it worse for no reason.

>if the ENS team went rogue and against the community’s wishes, the protocol could be forked

This is exactly how DNS works as well. There is no practical difference, and yet no one forks the DNS root because doing so would be extremely expensive and pointless. Because it's not just about forking the protocol, you also need to fork the whole network and overcome network effects, and that's the actual hard part. ENS offers absolutely nothing to fix this compared to DNS. It's the same thing. I should also point you to this sentence in the FAQ:

>The root node is presently owned by a multisig contract, with keys held by trustworthy individuals in the Ethereum community

Which is a random, centralized group of people hand picked by the ENS founder, acting similarly to a corporate board of directors. There's absolutely nothing "decentralized" about it in any way. I'm completely serious when I say this whole thing is a blatant scam built on lies. If you find yourself trying to look for positives in this system, you're doing something wrong. It's literally all bad.

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a long winded way of saying: > They don't have any other purpose and there isn't any other reason to hold them. A claim that is easily refuted. Send 1000 DAI to an individual and they can now hold a USD pegged asset non custodially, without a USD bank account, and transfer any amount to other individuals. Smart contracts can be made immutable and locked. The ENS root multisig owners have locked .eth TLD and h…

>they can now hold a USD pegged asset non custodially Nope, this is wrong. Any stablecoin is necessarily centralized in order to maintain the peg, in the case of DAI it has a "custodian" in the form of MakerDAO. Look it up, this is how they all work. When they say the words "non-custodial" it's a blatant lie. Everything in crypto has a custodian, some projects are just aggressive about trying to conceal them. >Withou…

MakerDAO has no ability to block individual holders' DAI tokens. ENS DAO and ENS root multisig owners have no way to revoke your registered ENS .eth name address or take control of its records. You and I have a different idea of "custodial." Banks, CeFi lenders, payment processors can and do regularly eject and censor customers on a per-transaction basis, even building automated flagging systems to do this.

> But this isn't a reason to hold them.

The person now has DAI, an asset that has value, and that they can send to another person. They received the DAI in 30 seconds, without needing a bank, and can send it to another person in 30 seconds, also without them needing a bank. The closest comparison is cash, but you cannot securely send cash around the world in 30 seconds without a bank.

There are many contracts and protocols that are designed to be immutable-only with forking as the only mode of governance, I would advise doing a little more research into the development practices.

> This is exactly how DNS works as well. There is no practical difference

Except that domain name registrars are centralized entities with complete custody over their owned domains, unlike .eth names which are not owned by any central party, and cannot even be revoked or controlled by the root node multisig owners.

A lot of your writing seems like a sort of zealotry against crypto, which is understandable as we are on HN, but it does not mean it is accurate.

Re: Web 3.0 – The Great Con

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they can now hold a USD pegged asset non custodially Nope, this is wrong. Any stablecoin is necessarily centralized in order to maintain the peg, in the case of DAI it has a "custodian" in the form of MakerDAO. Look it up, this is how they all work. When they say the words "non-custodial" it's a blatant lie. Everything in crypto has a custodian, some projects are just aggressive about trying to conceal them. >Withou…

MakerDAO has no ability to block individual holders' DAI tokens. ENS DAO and ENS root multisig owners have no way to revoke your registered ENS .eth name address or take control of its records. You and I have a different idea of "custodial." Banks, CeFi lenders, payment processors can and do regularly eject and censor customers on a per-transaction basis, even building automated flagging systems to do this. > But thi…

>MakerDAO has no ability to block individual holders' DAI tokens. ENS DAO and ENS root multisig owners have no way to revoke your registered ENS .eth name address or take control of its records.

Nope, they actually can do all of this by just updating the smart contracts. And even if this were true, it would be an anti-feature. I don't want to use a system where the illegitimate transactions of thieves and hackers can't be blocked. Just look at how many smart contracts get hacked to see what a bad idea it is to say "we never block any bad actors". It just makes no sense at all to try to spin that as a selling point. It's not in any way a good thing.

>The person now has DAI, an asset that has value, and that they can send to another person. They received the DAI in 30 seconds, without needing a bank, and can send it to another person in 30 seconds, also without them needing a bank. The closest comparison is cash, but you cannot securely send cash around the world in 30 seconds without a bank.

Yes you can, I already addressed this. Moneygram and similar services literally does this, without cryptos or blockchains. All you need to do in order to accomplish this is to have someone else who has some funds (or a bank account) that is offering to make the transfer for you and gives you a code (or lets you use your own personal code, like a private key) to redeem the funds on the other end. No blockchains are required at all to do this, adding blockchains to this only makes it worse because it unnecessarily adds more extra steps.

>There are many contracts and protocols that are designed to be immutable-only with forking as the only mode of governance, I would advise doing a little more research into the development practices.

I've done plenty of research and I'd say that's a universally bad idea, and whoever is saying that has no idea what they're talking about and should be discredited. Forking is an extreme method of last resort that has a lot of friction, it isn't something you want to encourage people to do just because of some small easily-fixable bug. Especially when people stand to lose a lot of money because of those bugs. This is just another instance where this stuff is like the wild west with no regard for normal development practices used in financial software.

>Except that domain name registrars are centralized entities with complete custody over their owned domains, unlike .eth names which are not owned by any central party, and cannot even be revoked or controlled by the root node multisig owners.

Ok but you just said some other party could fork and replace the protocol as governance, which one is it? If there turns out to be some nasty bug in that contract the developers will just say "whoops, everyone use this new contract instead" and then everyone will be frustrated but will still switch over to it because they have no other choice. Or for the nuclear option, if the ethereum developers really wanted to, they could just change the ethereum code itself to mess with that smart contract, just like they already did in 2016 and they could easily do again if they decided to. "Non-custodial" in crypto is a complete lie. I'll say it again, there is always custody. This is still inherently a network service that has to run on physical computers and has to get updated by humans who need to perform customer service and all that jazz. In crypto it's just intentionally obfuscated who actually controls what.

Even assuming for a moment that all this works like you say it does, it still would be a bad thing that isn't innovative at all, it's just lazy! I would absolutely not use a domain name service that refuses to block terrorists and criminals and refuses to come up with any way to effectively block them. I don't want to be on the same network as them at all, everything you're saying is an anti-feature.

>A lot of your writing seems like a sort of zealotry against crypto

It's not. What I actually do have zealotry against is liars and thieves. Crypto just happens to be overloaded with those types. The entirety of it is a fraud based on faulty technology that can't actually do any of what is promised in any meaningful way that is different from existing systems. The core of your comment seems to be saying "if you don't like it then just fork" but this is the whole problem cryptos were pitched to solve in the first place! They wanted to "fork" the banking system because they were angry about bank baliouts but now they've gone and done the exact same stuff over and over again!

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