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Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

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Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#151

Post by ryandrake »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #124
mooreds wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't sound like they ever really had a direct talk with their boss. Sure, but why? Why wouldn't you have a direct, honest conversation with your manager? I'll tell you why. Because it can be terrifying. You don't know how they will react, whether you'll be forced off interesting projects, put at the top of the layoff list, or similar. You can watch how they handle other situations and get an inkling, but you…

>From this perspective, it's a lot easier to just pack it in, write off the boss and company, and find a new job. It's less satisfying, to be sure, but less terrifying. This exactly. I've tried having 'difficult' conversations with my boss only to wind up on their bad list. Thankfully I'm at a company with a strong culture now and I'm much more financially independent than when I was younger.

For way too many (bad) managers, deliberately initiating a 1:1 with them can feel like calling the police in the USA. You have to really consider your options, because you have no idea what the police are going to do. They might be cool, or they might shoot your dog. They might arrest the wrong person, or they might even ignore the call. They might get pissed at you and start harassing you every time they're in your neighborhood. Obviously with your manager, nobody is going to get shot, but I've had bosses that were so unpredictable that you wouldn't voluntarily risk talking to them, because who knows how you might come out of the conversation: Your problem might end up worse, you might end up with more (or less) job responsibilities, you might get on their "bad list" (or even their "good list"), you might get fired. You never know ahead of time.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#152

Post by vultour »

honkler wrote: post #2

1. Make BS metrics/goals 2. Achieve them 3. ?? 4. Profit

This is how it works in large corporations with a mandated 360-review process. Hell, my old boss told me to put in a bunch of "goals" I have already achieved/delivered in the current year to make it even easier.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#153

Post by kroltan »

beebmam wrote: post #71
mattw2121 wrote: post #9

I had a situation once where we had a minor re-org and I ended up with a new manager. Literally day one, he made an attempt to change everyone's role. We were a team of developers and business analysts. He decided that everyone would become both and spend 50% of their time on each activity. Not sure why he thought this was a good idea, but he did. After he announced it, I had a 1x1 with him and clearly let him know t…

> Why am I telling you? It's that I've learned it better to communicate and hopefully work things out then just pack up and head to another place. How do you know it was better, in this circumstance, if you don't know what the outcome of packing up would have been? It's impossible to know all the consequences of our actions.

I think the implication here is that he otherwise liked the position. Sure, you can always hike and try something new, but if you like what you were doing before, communicating helps. Don't assume that a change is immediately Unwaivering Word Of God.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#154

Post by nohankyou »

I think too many people lean on 'strengths' instead of realizing that you could be putting effort to improve your 'opportunities'. Growth is about making yourself better at things you aren't naturally good at, not staying in your safe zone doing the same exact things just because it's easier for you that way.

This is how I hire, I look for people willing to adapt and learn, because our field changes constantly you have to be able and willing to adapt to it. That may not be comfortable.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#155

Post by jcadam »

mooreds wrote: post #56
duxup wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many developer stories out there where it doesn't sound like they ever really had a direct talk with their boss.

> it doesn't sound like they ever really had a direct talk with their boss. Sure, but why? Why wouldn't you have a direct, honest conversation with your manager? I'll tell you why. Because it can be terrifying. You don't know how they will react, whether you'll be forced off interesting projects, put at the top of the layoff list, or similar. You can watch how they handle other situations and get an inkling, but you…

> You don't know how they will react, whether you'll be forced off interesting projects, put at the top of the layoff list, or similar.

Yep, this has happened to me. So if I'm unhappy, I usually just start sending my resume out. I never ask for anything (big) from my boss unless I have an offer in-hand.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#156

Post by shubb »

blululu wrote: post #63
buscoquadnary wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

You know who is going to be the first one fired and the last one promoted? The SWE who is being asked to do some bogus tasks that aren't even close to what they are capable of. In many cases you are in one way or another obligated to act as you suggest, but it is not always good for you personally and simply pretending that you aren't getting screwed is pretty naive. You often don't really have much of a choice in th…

The example given is fridge cleaning, but tasks outside your narrow job spec can be very useful.

For instance, if you are hired as a software tester, and snag a task setting up the automated build system, you can turn that into a higher paid dev ops careeer.

Some people thrive in highly structured environments where they can optimize for metrics and get promotions - they do well in big companies. Others collect skills and achievements and use those to push their career forward - they do well in small companies and consulting. The world needs both.

With that said, knowing when to say no is very important as you say.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#157

Post by FieryTransition »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #17

Personally I think the concept of growth is a scam to get people to work harder for less. You can certainly grow your skill set, but intelligent people can rise to the occasion in most jobs. Including CEO/Director/High level decision making jobs. Everytime I have received some insultingly low offer from a startup, they start talking about "growth", "what I can own", "wearing many hats". Meanwhile, the founder is sitt…

Agreed, growth is a vague term, such that you can hide your lack of knowledge of the situation or the person, or it is just straight exploitation sprinkled with bs

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#158

Post by wccrawford »

duxup wrote: post #109
mooreds wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't sound like they ever really had a direct talk with their boss. Sure, but why? Why wouldn't you have a direct, honest conversation with your manager? I'll tell you why. Because it can be terrifying. You don't know how they will react, whether you'll be forced off interesting projects, put at the top of the layoff list, or similar. You can watch how they handle other situations and get an inkling, but you…

Maybe "communicating with your boss" is a skill folks need to be taught. Uncomfortable, scary, yup, but necessary.

Yup, and IMO definitely less scary than finding and starting an entirely new job.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#159

Post by jcadam »

nscalf wrote: post #78

The real problem here is that hiring is a giant pain for both sides. In an ideal world, you would quickly quit that job and hop to another. If you didn't do that, they would quickly hire you and both sides would move on without much stress. But changing jobs/employees is a big deal involved insurance, retirement funds, dozens of hours of interviews over many weeks, etc. My advice for anyone in this spot is to quit qu…

Yep, I never quit a job without a new one lined up. Because sometimes it takes several months to find something decent.

Sometimes you don't have a choice. If you've been laid off, you may have to jump on the first thing that comes along (will usually be a suck job with high turnover - those always seem to hire quickly) and keep looking for something good.

Re: Tell HN: Beware 'Ungrowth' in Your Job

#160

Post by mindcrime »

buscoquadnary wrote: post #24
mattw2121 wrote: post #9

I had a situation once where we had a minor re-org and I ended up with a new manager. Literally day one, he made an attempt to change everyone's role. We were a team of developers and business analysts. He decided that everyone would become both and spend 50% of their time on each activity. Not sure why he thought this was a good idea, but he did. After he announced it, I had a 1x1 with him and clearly let him know t…

This right here. I realized long ago I should do whatever I can to the best of my ability. If my superiors want to do something stupid or use my skillet in a suboptimal way my responsibility is to do my best to council with them, share what I see and then do the best job I can at whatever I am assigned to, assuming over course it doesn't cross legal or moral boundaries. My job is not my Identity we have an economic a…

If my boss wants to pay me a SWE salary and then insists I clean out the break room fridge on Friday that is his perogrative not mine.

I mean... I can buy this to a point. But for me personally, there are lines. And there are things I'm just not going to do. Period.

I know it's un-trendy to talk about anything being "beneath you", and I'm not sure that's the wording I would use, but there are simply things that I don't consider being in my wheelhouse and that if you ask me to do, I'm going to say "no". Then you can decide if you want to fire me or not.

Case in point: I used to be a parts counter clerk at Advance Auto Parts. We got a new manager and one day he comes in and asks me to go outside and sweep the parking lot. I said "no" and he tells me to do it or I'm fired. So I rip off my Advance Auto Parts shirt, throw it in his face, say "fuck you" and walk out. 30+ years later I feel absolutely no regret about that. I didn't apologize then and I won't now.

There's more to my life than a job and I can find another way to pay the bills. I don't have to take their bullshit.

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