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GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

githubcopilotinvestigation.com

911–920 of 1001 posts

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#911
post #794

I'm in favor of this. You can't ingest code that says "you cannot use this without attribution", put it through a bunch of if statements that strip the license, and then say it's "AI-generated". I don't care about most of our generic CRUD apps or the 15th rewrite of a sorting algorithm, but I do care about those smart enough to advance the field and come up with novel solutions. If we take away the incentive for attr…

Totally disagree. Training is fair use. It is akin to learning. Code licenses do not restrict you from reading or learning. ML training needs to be fair use of copyrighted works, or most machine learning and AI projects will be impossible.

>ML training needs to be fair use of copyrighted works, or most machine learning and AI projects will be impossible.

Good riddance then.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#912
post #872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like posts have said, whether training is fair use is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of law. You can't use an appeal to your authority to make grand statements like this. Frankly, I don't care that ML/AI _needs_ this to work. That's not my problem. You don't get to circumvent existing agreements (and law) because you believe that ML learning is the same as a human reading a piece of code and then typing it u…

There isn’t law any law yet. And yes, it is the same thing as learning. If you have a robot that learns like a human does … you think it should be illegal for that machine to look at GitHub? To watch a Hollywood movie?

>If you have a robot that learns like a human does … you think it should be illegal for that machine to look at GitHub? To watch a Hollywood movie?

Yes.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#913

>But how will you feel if Copi­lot erases your open-source com­mu­nity? Jesus Christ, dramatic much? Are people that stumble upon a piece of code while googling how to do something, and end up copying and pasting the code from the repo, really building the open source community? Because that's essentially what it is. Whether I use copilot to generate a tedious function, or I copy it from your open source repo I'm on…

Couldn't agree more... It's very depressing that this post is popular, wouldn't want Copilot shut down over some drama queen lawyers that have no connection to the reality of software development and ALL creative fields. Creation requires influence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPERZDfyWc&feature=emb_titl... The entire fucking concept of intellectual property and copyright is flawed from the get go. The issue peo…

> The entire fucking concept of intellectual property and copyright is flawed from the get go.

Many people are upset because Microsoft is hiding behind copyright and lawyers to enforce it, while at the same time ignoring the concept of intellectual property when it comes to smaller players. I'd imagine that if Microsoft removed copyright on all their code and released it and Copilot as open source, there would be much less outrage.

The issue here, for me at least, isn't centered around copyright as a concept; it's about the asymmetry of the situation. Microsoft is exploiting those without any recourse in order to sell a product.

Your ideas about a new economy and no copyright are interesting, but they will not happen any time soon. In the meantime, in reality, Microsoft is making millions based on an enormous pile of community code while not offering their code back to that community.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#914

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MS absolutely has the authority to copy, use, and even train their models on your GPL-license code, because you agreed to let them do that when you signed their EULA when you decided to host your code on GitHub. What about GPL code which you don't own, but post to Github, Like the gcc mirror repo?

read the terms of service. you must have the right to publish the code you put on github.com, and by publishing to github.com, you assert that you have the rights to do so. you also grant GitHub the right to show that code to others, no matter what license your code is licensed under. why does no one read the terms of service or license agreements? these questions are answered there and this "copilot is stealing" stu…

Okay, but what gives them the right to remove the license from my code when redistributing it?

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#915

Does reading software code count as "using software"? I personally don't consider myself subject to a license when I'm reading public code on GitHub. GitHub Copilot and Codex AI seem to be doing nothing more than reading a bunch of source code, not reusing that code to incorporate its functionality into a different product.

Did you read the part of the article where it states that it has been shown that Copilot copies verbatim large sections of copyrighted code, stripped of all attribution, depending on the prompt provided?

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#916
Fair use is about more than just the size of the excerpt, and even open source software still has a copyright and terms.

If you write an article about good writing, and quote a choice paragraph from someone else's work to show an example, and credit that quote, that is fair use.

Is it fair use if you read an awesome paragraph, something that really is the result of the authors unique intellect and effort and craftsmanship, and makes you think "damn", and then drop that same jewel into your book?

You can probably get away with it, because you probably just won't be able to convince a judge that any single paragraph is that big of a theft.

But I don't mean to ask if you can get away with it, I mean to ask if it should be considered fine honorable behavior.

The difference is, the paragraph isn't being included for examination or comment or transformation, it's being included to directly copy and perform it's original function as part of what makes a work a great work, and, it's not being credited in any bibliography or footnotes or directly.

The reader reads the paragraph and is impressed by your deep insight, which you never had, and the original author did.

How about if your new book has many such uncredited snips from other authors, such that your new work is denser and richer than any of the other individual authors?

This is what copilot is doing, or rather it's facilitating people doing it, as far as I can tell.

The original snippets are functional, not there for examination, copied verbatim, not transformed (sometimes), and not credited.

Most of it comes from open source works anyway and most authors would probably be fine with it if the stuff was simply credited.

I think as a tool, in the context of software vs literature, the tool is probably more good than bad for everyone as a whole. It probably results in the generation of more, and more correct software. Since software is more like a machine than a novel, it benefits all of humanity when machines work well.

But it needs to somehow credit the original authors, or if that's not possible then users do not get to claim credit for any work it was used on. Or, they can only claim a sort of tainted credit.

Maybe it needs a combimation of policies that together make a fair system. One element would be, the training set must be composed of strictly open source software (pick some definition). Then another element would be, any work that uses it, is tagged as such. You only get to say "I wrote this, with copilot." not merely "I wrote this". And any work that uses it is itself gpl. The individual snips maybe don't have to be credited because the theory will be the training set as a whole was credited, and those are all available somewhere. You as a contributor won't get credit for being in someone's mp3 transcoder app, but that app WILL declare that it used the training set, and the training set WILL declare all of your material that is in it.

Maybe there can be a special version that only includes code where the original terms did not require anything at all, not even preserving the authors name or the license that says it's free, and that version's output can be used without credit.

If proprietary software wants to benefit from a tool like that, they can pay for licenses from other proprietary software developers to include their software in their ai's training set, just like with normal software licensing for inclusion and re-sale in a new product.

But right now, as copilot currently exists, as far as I can tell it's blowing past and ignoring ANY considerations like that and Github are simply outlaws.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#917
post #811

Although I'm aware that this tool is a boon to many, particularly those with impediments like RSI, I still have to echo what a number of other comments say: There really is a very large proportion of adult software developers in the market who are simply too young to have lived through the EEE Microsoft era. Add on to that the proportion of old-enough Microsoft-brand "dotnetter" software developers who simply don't c…

If this is MS trying to pull off EEE, what does the extinguish phase look like? That they try to make it so that any codebase the uses copilot is owned by them, and that there's no way to turn it off because all other editors or code hosting sites will exist? Plausible I suppose if they play the game for several decades and somehow no one else produces any innovation in the space.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#918
post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law does not concern itself with trifles.[0] Programmers tend to think of copyright as a Boolean valued function. Either something is infringement or it isn’t. Judges think of copyright infringement as a real-valued function of many arguments corresponding to the circumstances of the parties (e.g. what actual damage was done?). A human quoting a human without attribution, without any profit made or identifiable d…

I'm not convinced of what you wrote. Is it actually true that cases like that are dismissed? Or is it that the infringing party is ordered to stop, but not damages are awarded to the rightsholder? You've offered no examples of dismissal to back up your statement. I absolutely agree with you that copyright is not a boolean, but I don't buy the idea that a judge will just shrug and allow infringement to continue just b…

https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/casebrief/p/casebrief-n...

> CONCLUSION:

> The court of appeals affirmed the district court's judgment. The court held that the Performers' use of the composition, as distinct from the use of the composer's performance, was de minimis and therefore not actionable. Considering only the compositional elements, the brief and relatively simple segment of the composition used by the Performers was neither quantitatively nor qualitatively significant when viewed in relation to the composition as a whole. Thus, despite the high degree of similarity from the actual use of the recorded composition, the scope of the similarity was not sufficiently substantial to support Newton's infringement claim.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#919
A good solution might be to add a new license clause stipulating whether the owner is okay with their code being used to train AI models.

Part of the clause would explain that if you are okay with your code being trained on, then you're also accepting being okay with it being copied verbatim at some point down the line during code completion.

You do get a bit of tragedy of the commons where everybody wants to use the AI model but nobody wants their own code trained on.

I don't like the idea of a world where licensing and copyright law prevents us from enjoying the progress of AI. Caveat: I am not an expert on open source.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#920

Unfortunately the tone I'm getting from many of these comments makes me feel that people see open source projects as a resource to be mined rather than as a product to be respected. A very entitled attitude ("I really don't want to lose my lovely tool") There seems to be -- on the whole -- little respect for the spirit of the GPL and LGPL and it really is quite a change from, say, 20 years ago, when the 'free softwar…

What do you expect when people grant GitHub an extra license to their repos[0]? 0: https://docs.github.com/en/site-policy/github-terms/github-t...

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