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Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

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Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#491
post #185

In the short run, technological progress is much slower than anyone hopes, but in the long run it is much faster than anyone expects. My favorite example is that in 1987, the scientific consensus was that it would take "at least 100 years" and likely much longer to sequence the entire human gnome.[a] But the vast majority of it was sequenced by 2000, only 13 years later. Moreover, just two decades later, anyone could…

[Disclaimer] I worked for Cruise for 4 years. I agree with everything you said, but chuckled at this particular part (which is very wrong): > Tesla is significantly ahead of everyone else. Everyone in the industry knows that Tesla is nowhere near the tip of the technology. What Tesla does is _fantastic marketing_. Their whole self-driving division is just a mechanism to sell more cars. At a high level, this is why: -…

Having ridden the self driving vans from Waymo in Arizona several times, it really does feel like stepping into the future. Although they only cover a specific geographical area, they have really refined the riding experience within it.

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not going to stop maintaining roads. They exist for military defense as much as they do for road trips and trucks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Highway_System_(Unite...

Road maintenance isn't a fixed cost; The level of use, particularly by heavy vehicles like trucks, affects the amount of maintenance required.

You’re right. It’d definitely decrease maintenance. I’m not sure how much maintenance is from usage vs wear from the weather (especially in cold areas)

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#493
post #237
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on, it’s just collision avoidance, you don’t need general AI for that

Collision avoidance that needs object permanence including theory of mind (for cows). How hard could it be?

What? You don't need to model a cow's mind to steer a car around it.

This discussion is so absurd. :)

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#494
post #280
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very small benefit for society but potentially a very large benefit for a select few stakeholders. Musk largely became the richest person on the planet off the back of the promise that nobody else would have decent EV tech (turns out, they do), nobody else would have the battery production capacity (turns out, they do, plus super ironic when Tesla is partnering with Panasonic for battery production), AND the promis…

It's an enormous benefit to society. A huge number of people are killed or seriously injured in car crashes every year. Plus the quality of life benefits and reduction in property damage.

Yeah, but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

What you're referring to doesn't exist. Right now it's vaporware, and for all we know, we could be 1 century away from solving it up to human levels.

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#495

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> off the back of the promise that nobody else would have decent EV tech (turns out, they do) That just simply not true. He became one of the richest people in the world when Tesla cracked really high volume productions of EVs at a quite amazing margin. That is what people didn't believe was possible when they did it in 2018. And at the same time SpaceX, where Musk owns much more stock off, managed to re-usability op…

Lets cut the argument very short. If Tesla or SpaceX were to disappear tomorrow nobody would experience any existential crisis. If you disappeared Microsoft, Apple or Amazon or Walmart overnight the whole economy would come to a halt. Same for JPMChase,WellsFargo, BoA etc. Musk is the first guy to reach the top of the Forbes list while being at the helm of an aspirational company, not one that is structurally importa…

This is an awesome point, you put into words something I couldn't describe very well. A large part of the current economy, in multiple fields, is aspirational, not foundational.

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to the public. Or at least it’s “invite only”.

And Tesla FSD is public and not invite only? And the company that has actual driverless cars that you can hire isn't "shipping", but the the car you aren't allowed to take your hands off the wheel is? Hilarious.

I wasn’t comparing to nor defending Tesla’s self driving system. I was just clarifying that Cruise’s cars are not “available” to the public. I was surprised to learn this, so I thought other might have missed this fact as well.

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#497
post #493
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collision avoidance that needs object permanence including theory of mind (for cows). How hard could it be?

What? You don't need to model a cow's mind to steer a car around it. This discussion is so absurd. :)

I gather you haven't encountered loitering cows :-)

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perceptions contradict this article: (1) The technology is progressing faster than is generally recognized, with vehicles getting progressively better at dealing with edge cases and handling failures gracefully. (2) Judging by the videos I've watched online, Tesla is significantly ahead of everyone else. We must be watching different videos. And experiencing Teslas differently. I see Teslas constantly slamming on…

Oh my dog. Part of this is the fault of Tesla's marketing, but you are wildly off mark. The cars you are seeing are Autopilot, not FSD. Most of them are even the even older, radar-based autopilot. Tesla Vision has no issues detecting white semis crossing your path. Vehicles with radar, on the other hand, struggle with discerning those from overhead bridges, so if one appears close to a bridge, you're SOL due to white…

Going to post this here as a rebuttal, a video made by Tesla fans that shows some severe shortcomings in the current version of FSD.

https://insideevs.com/news/616509/tesla-full-self-driving-be...

TLDR: a Tesla can't identify a box in the road. IO can finally identify people, but it still doesn't do a good job of avoiding them.

Tesla Vision has no issues detecting white semis crossing your path. Vehicles with radar, on the other hand, struggle with discerning those from overhead bridges, so if one appears close to a bridge, you're SOL due to whitelisting.

Both of these statements are false. Tesla Vision still has trouble detecting white semis as of October 2022. There are no self-driving vehicles that use radar for navigation(you appear to be mixing up radar with LIDAR, which has range-sensing built in, and all of Tesla's competitors are able to tell trucks apart from bridges; truck identification failure is unique to Tesla), though many regular modern cars do use it for autobraking systems. As these systems are only intended for use at extremely short ranges directly in front of the vehicle, it's irrelevant whether the object detected is a bridge or a semi.

Tesla Vision in FSD is a much, much more developed version which has been excellent about detecting its environment, especially now with the new occupancy network. Its decision making needs work but you will notice, when watching all those videos, that detection of vehicles - even occluded ones - is not a problem at all.

This does not match reality. At all. Teslas still regularly swerve themselves across lanes of traffic and into oncoming traffic. In a brand new Tesla acquired by a co-worker several weeks ago, Tesla FSD could not identify cyclists on the road, failed to identify a number of pedestrians crossing at a crosswalk, did not successfully distinguish between semi trucks and the open sky, and only successfully identified about 1/2 of the other cars on the road with it. Maybe the super-duper secret version of Tesla Vision performs well, but the one actually available on Tesla vehicles right now performs worse than a drunk teenager.

Both Tesla and Karpathy himself have shown on multiple presentations that they focus on training unique/difficult situations because more data from perfect conditions is not useful to them anymore. They have shown exactly how they do it, and even showed the great infrastructure they've built for autolabeling.

This is demonstrably false; admission into the FSD program requires a safety score which cannot be achieved in areas with rough or steep roads, and is almost impossible to achieve in urban traffic, ergo, they are by definition not focusing on training unique/difficult situations. Moreover, as they still can't identify semi trucks, other cars, cyclists, or pedestrians with any reliability, the "great infrastructure" for "autolabeling" is basically just fraud.

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a parody?

No, I gave reasons for my preference.

You do understand that sprawl and suburbia (and car infrastructure) takes away from nature, not adds to it, right? We have paved over a huge portion of the country and that beautiful nature you so claim to enjoy.

Re: Even after $100B, self-driving cars are going nowhere

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot just add "public transport" to most of our existing cities to replace peoples' cars. The reason is that everything is too spread out, mostly due to the large parking lots everywhere. That may be sub-optimal in a certain sense, but it's the reality and you can't just snap your fingers and change it. Its not about 'snapping your finger'. Neither Netherlands or Switzerland built their systems from 1 day to…

What's wrong with "turn right on red"? It'd be a big problem in that exact form in Australia, but as a cyclist especially I'd rather we had the equivalent "turn left on red" law, and to be honest, cyclists can generally get away with it anyway. But I can't see why it would really be a huge issue if it was allowed for cars, unless they were persistently ignoring pedestrians/cyclists and turning into their path as they…

Turn right on red kills cyclists and pedestrians. It was always unsafe but the introduced it in the 1970 during the oil crisis with the idea that there would be less idling on red.

In most cases you shouldn't even need traffic lights at all but there is certainty a lot you can do with traffic lights if you optimize them, there are lots of videos on this from the Netherlnads. There they have separate sensors for different transport modes and also multiple levels so the intersection can respond smartly based on lots of info about what is coming from what direction. It can also let people cross half the road to the protect middle in a smart way. Forcing to press a button is horrible design!

But this is just one of many tools. Having flat bicycle and pedestrian ways where cars have to go over bumbs. There are many methods that are used.

The most import one is just slowing cars down cars.

Netherlands deliberately bans cars from some streets to kill certainty routes completely and forcing people to take different longer routes. That means also less cars on that route even in the parts that the car could have taken.

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