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GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

githubcopilotinvestigation.com

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Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#651
It's too bad we can't experiment with interesting things like Copilot without worrying about remuneration and the respecting of rights. But that's the way of the world - we must think of these things. MS/Github should give code copyright holders a simple and easy way to opt-out of contributing their code to the Copilot corpus. Currently the only way to opt-out is to make your repo private. That's not good enough.

It would be better, of course, if Copilot was opt-in, but they'd never go for that.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#652
RSI took away my ability to write any significant amount of code 30 yrs ago. co-pilot plus speech recognition restored that ability. what impressed me most was that from a textual description,co-pilot gave me code that could have been written by my mind and pre-injury hands.

from the comments here, if I push copilot into giving me code that I would have written for a given problem and that code violates licenses, then who is responsible for the copyright violation? co-pilot for giving me code that looks like copyrighted code or me for tweaking co-pilot commands to give me the code I envisioned which looks like copyrighted code?

also consider that the very tools used for solving problems in code lead coders to a small number of solutions for a given problem. is it plagiarism or parallel original thought?

also consider that when I wrote code, if I was solving a similar problem to what I solved before, I recreated that previously used code fragment (or larger) and use it to solve the problem at hand. I had zero issues leaving a trail of duplicate code behind me especially if the code was a major part of a software patent.

I didn't care, my code was lauded for it's readability and reliability. reuse the same concepts in multiple variations, you get real good and writing code correctly.

maybe co-pilot like programs could scan existing code bases and find examples of code fragment plagiarism with the goal of showing that software copyrights are useless.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you don't know Microsoft's history, a lot of what more informed people are worried about seems overblown. Or maybe they do know about it, and don't agree with you. Do you allow for such an option? https://github.com/features/copilot "What can I do to reduce GitHub Copilot’s suggestion of code that matches public code? We built a filter to help detect and suppress the rare instances where a GitHub Copilot suggesti…

> You have the choice to turn that filter on or off during setup. Notice that Copilot often gives code that verbatim matches opens source software, even when that filter is on. For example: https://twitter.com/DocSparse/status/1581461734665367554?s=2... Their approach of "matches or near matches (ignoring whitespace)" is clearly inadequate, and it's honestly insulting that they think this is enough. Even if Copilot j…

>Notice that Copilot often gives code that verbatim matches opens source software, even when that filter is on.

I saw a few examples, but I don't see how that extrapolates to often. It's quite possible I've missed something in the article since I kinda skimmed it. :)

>and it's honestly insulting that they think this is enough.

They don't. - "We plan on continuing to evolve this approach and welcome feedback and comment."

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#654
post #529

A sizable, possibly plurality cohort of fully adult tech people is young enough to not know about United States v. Microsoft Corp. This would explain a lot of comments I see on this topic. If you don't know Microsoft's history, a lot of what more informed people are worried about seems overblown. Copilot was Microsoft's first test of people's trust after the GitHub acquisition. It's going very, very, very poorly. The…

Microsoft has owned Github for how many years... and this is the _first_ test?

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Takes a while to get to the Extinguish phase.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#655
> how will you feel if Copi­lot erases your open-source com­mu­nity

How will you feel if greed of a lawer erases progress of your tools?

Lawyers are a detriment to anything they touch. Letting them into software was the biggest mistake we ever made. We should kept them away same way they are kept away from math.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#656
post #486

Here are a few thoughts I haven't formulated before: It seems clear enough to me that training AIs on copyrighted works is typically or commonly a fair use under existing law, because the AIs can and commonly do learn non-copyrightable elements and aspects of those works. It's very obvious from enormous numbers of examples that current AI systems are capable of learning much more abstract features of human culture (g…

It seems pretty clear to me, training an AI on copyrighted materials is not fair use. I'm not sure why you seem to think it is fair use

And it seems pretty clear to me that it is fair use, because it's not merely reproducing or creating a derivative work, but actually extracting patterns and modeling the works in a way that is intended to be used to create new and unrelated works. The fact that an occasional piece of code here and there might be reproduced verbatim is no different than e.g. Cliffs Notes occasionally quoting a passage, and Cliffs Notes are a well established case of fair use that to me, at least, seems even closer to "the line" than Copilot or Stable Diffusion.

FTA: "On the other hand, maybe you’re a fan of Copi­lot who thinks that AI is the future and I’m just yelling at clouds. First, the objec­tion here is not to AI-assisted cod­ing tools gen­er­ally, but to Microsoft’s spe­cific choices with Copi­lot. We can eas­ily imag­ine a ver­sion of Copi­lot that’s friend­lier to open-source devel­op­ers—for instance, where par­tic­i­pa­tion is vol­un­tary, or where coders are paid to con­tribute to the train­ing cor­pus."

This is the same argument that people use about Stable Diffusion, and it's kinda meh to me...I guess it'd be nice to allow people to opt-out, like Stable Diffusion is doing with their next versions, especially since a negligible percentage of people will do so and it won't affect the models at all. But yes, it basically is yelling at clouds. Opt-in would cripple models, and some people would make them anyways and just keep them secret, which is worse for the world. And at the end of the day, this really does just seem to me like a fair use of stuff that you've published on the Internet for anyone with a browser to look at. The AI models of the future are going to gobble the whole net up, and if you don't want them ingesting your stuff and learning from it, then you just shouldn't make it freely available.

If OpenAI/GitHub/MS really wanted to get ahead of this and head off any potential legal conflict, they could always just open source the models and weights, which would be in line with the name "OpenAI"...it would be a minor project to scrape all the correct headers to add to a license file(s), but negligible compared to the many millions of dollars spent on training.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why you seem to think it is fair use I think OP explains clearly, in many paragraphs, why it's fair use. That's literally what their whole post is about.

The concept of fair use applies to small volumes of work. Clearly, training on large volumes of data is not small volumes in any sense of the word. The argument that it is fair use is itself flawed.

When I fair use a small quote from a book, I may have read the whole book.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#658
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans do violate copyright if they use copyrighted passages directly in their work and pass it off as their own without any attribution, which is what copilot has been show to sometimes do, though not always. Copilot will sometimes offer chunks of code that can be found verbatim in open source code bases and passes it off to users without attribution. I agree it is ok to learn from copyrighted work and reproduce new…

> which is what copilot has been show to sometimes do In those cases it seems that humans are already copying code without also propagating licenses appropriately. LLMs are more likely to memorize things which occur a lot (and I'd bet rare things that are representative of some conceptual axis). The main examples presented so far, Davis and Carmack, have the property of having been copied a lot. The generative model…

One thing I worry about is if the uncertainty around copyright violation cools down activity in open models while raising the price of commercial offerings. Commercial entities can afford devoting resources towards mitigating copyright violations such as eating the cost of maintaining a database of frequently copied code and identifying most likely origin combined with a large semantic database of code snippets.

An open equivalent might be wary of being accused of contributing to copyright violations since in that scenario, there is no way to force people to respect it.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#659
post #634
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hardly a new thing! For instance, Google search makes billions of dollars by indexing content that other people make.

Google Search links to the original content. Copilot doesn't.

When you ask it a question, it will often simply construct an answer from the pages it indexed, so people don't have to click. Sure, it links it, but for what? Thankfully, the answers are almost always useless.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why you seem to think it is fair use I think OP explains clearly, in many paragraphs, why it's fair use. That's literally what their whole post is about.

The concept of fair use applies to small volumes of work. Clearly, training on large volumes of data is not small volumes in any sense of the word. The argument that it is fair use is itself flawed.

Absolutely incorrect, fair use applies to *reproducing* small volumes of work, not analyzing it. If I published an article gleaning some conclusion based on an analysis of 10,000 issues of the New York Times, that would still 100% be fair use; similarly, Google is absolutely allowed to publish word count metrics based on their scanned book repo, even though publishing the books themselves is not fair use. You are trying to read something into the fair use doctrine that is absolutely not there (to the extent that anything is there, which very little is other than "I'll know it when I see it" and prior case law, unfortunately).
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