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GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

githubcopilotinvestigation.com

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Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#81

I've been trained on open source code, and there are likely many algorithms that I've internalized that are very similar to the "standard" way of performing an operation. Is there a reason why an AI being trained on the same open source code isn't a similar situation? I agree that wholesale pasting of code chunks is an issue, but that hasn't been my experience with Copilot. I'm not arguing for Copilot here...I'm genu…

>Is there a reason why an AI being trained on the same open source code isn't a similar situation?

You are a human. You know what's right or wrong. You know you can't just copy code 1:1 from public repositories without respecting their license. The AI doesn't know and doesn't care. It's a common problem with creative AIs that they will occasionally regurgitate near 1:1 copies of their training data, and I don't think it's an easy problem to solve.

>I agree that wholesale pasting of code chunks is an issue, but that hasn't been my experience with Copilot.

The article provides several examples of it happening. Just because it hasn't regularly happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Steve Ballmer They have some really good blow in Redmond. If anybody could win an award for being coked up and sweaty on stage... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs

Fun story: That was my first employee town hall, in 2000. I was concerned for the fellow (and so very glad when he left, Satya has been so so so much better for the company and morale). It was definitely an... interesting introduction to the company. See also this Domo video that turned it into a song. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ZDH45OAt8

At the time, I was doing Linux, OpenBSD and FreeBSD stuff in Bellingham. The reaction from the local and regional non-Microsoft community was really like "Holy shit what is going on down there?!"

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#83
post #52

I'd be rather saddened if Copilot was shut down or neutered because of a few vocal few protesting against it. It's been a massive productivity improvement to our senior devs, and I got so used to it that it's an annoyance when Copilot doesn't respond.

I’d claim that it’s more than a “few vocal” protestors. If the system is illegal, it needs to become legal or disappear.

If I’m writing code for a query optimizer, the SQL Server solution isn’t going to magically show up.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#84
My view is the copilot is not stealing open source code. It is learning from it just as a human reader would. People's disguste is based on the assimilation of what they thought was a human trait being machine derived from their work.

The copilot service backed by an army of actual humans wouldn’t be a story at all. Nor would anyone be angry, if an individual offered coding skills as a service, and had gone through the exercise of learning great amount to open source software to do so.

No open source license was written with this in mind. Because previously learning was something only humans could do and no one had issue with sharing that knowledge. Until licenses take machine learning use into account I see no problems with Copilot.

Source cannot be open if you restrict any viewing of it.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#85

New tech creates winners and losers, and losers inevitably complain. See looms, VHS, Napster, etc. The more of this complaining I see, the more it falls flat. The only interesting thing is which side different communities end up being on. To be fair, record companies were not in the least bit sympathetic. Open source contributors are easier to identify with, though imo it doesn't actually make their concerns more val…

What does this comment even mean? I cannot parse what you are suggesting.

He's saying you're a luddite for not wanting Copilot to steal all your code and use it for furthering the grand vision of AI generated code (which supposedly represents the forward march of progress)

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#86
"[W]e inquired pri­vately with Fried­man and other Microsoft and GitHub rep­re­sen­ta­tives in June 2021, ask­ing for solid legal ref­er­ences for GitHub’s pub­lic legal posi­tions … They pro­vided none."

Well... DUH. Why would they? You want to possibly sue them. Why in the hell would they, or anyone, provide crucial evidence for your lawsuit before you've sued them, regardless of the case and circumstances? Of course they aren't going to provide evidence, because you are obviously going to then try to prove hypocrisy, whereas you might not have enough to go on if they don't talk. No corporate lawyer in their right mind would ever grant such a request. (Edit: You are quite literally asking what their legal strategy is going to be, before the lawsuit has occurred, and then trying to spin the refusal as a proof of guilt.)

That's like claiming that an alleged drug dealer who didn't talk without a lawyer present is obviously a criminal, because if he wasn't he would have talked. What a nothing of a point.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#87
post #13

> Microsoft char­ac­ter­izes the out­put of Copi­lot as a series of code "sug­ges­tions". Microsoft "does not claim any rights" in these sug­ges­tions. But nei­ther does Microsoft make any guar­an­tees about the cor­rect­ness, secu­rity, or exten­u­at­ing intel­lec­tual-prop­erty entan­gle­ments of the code so pro­duced. Once you accept a Copi­lot sug­ges­tion, all that becomes your prob­lem: > "You are respon­si­ble…

intel­lec­tual prop­erty scan­ning

With "normal" code I can generally see (or figure out) who posted/published it and reach out for explicit permission. It's not uncommon for me to do this.

How is one supposed to do that for the generated stuff? Seems like an awefully hands-off attitude. As challenging as it is, they really ought to be qualifying the input samples of training code before ingesting.

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#88
post #47
post #13

> Microsoft char­ac­ter­izes the out­put of Copi­lot as a series of code "sug­ges­tions". Microsoft "does not claim any rights" in these sug­ges­tions. But nei­ther does Microsoft make any guar­an­tees about the cor­rect­ness, secu­rity, or exten­u­at­ing intel­lec­tual-prop­erty entan­gle­ments of the code so pro­duced. Once you accept a Copi­lot sug­ges­tion, all that becomes your prob­lem: > "You are respon­si­ble…

Could you help me understand the link between the two?

The point is not clear, but if I were to guess, it's that Github Copilot should come with a California Prop 65 warning, because it can give your code "cancer" (GPL-licensed snippets from sources like Linux codebas).

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#89
post #69

New tech creates winners and losers, and losers inevitably complain. See looms, VHS, Napster, etc. The more of this complaining I see, the more it falls flat. The only interesting thing is which side different communities end up being on. To be fair, record companies were not in the least bit sympathetic. Open source contributors are easier to identify with, though imo it doesn't actually make their concerns more val…

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” Henry Ford

[deleted]

Re: GitHub Copi­lot inves­ti­ga­tion

#90
I feel "stealing your community" is lawyer hyperbole, but people also seem ok with what MS is doing with copilot, and I am not.

If you think what copilot is doing is ok, and there is nothing wrong with it, I'd love it if you could go through this small thought exercise, and see if it impacts your view at all:

Say you write a bunch of code, and release it under GPL. For the sake of argument imagine it is something complicated that you care about.

Now say another person is trying to do what your code does, and they find your code, a say "excellent". They then copy and paste it into their project, and release their code under a BSD license instead.

Would you consider this theft of your IP? The law certainly would, and I think most devs would as well.

What would you say if they instead release "their" code as public domain?

Now we'll go a bit further. Another person is trying to solve this problem in some commercial software. They find your code, copy-paste it into their project, then sell their software and don't release the source, or even acknowledge you.

Would you consider _this_ theft? again the law would.

Now, what if instead they found your code through the invalid BSD relicense? or the invalid public domain one?

To me every one of these would be theft, and every one would be required to required to release the source of projects that made use of my GPL'd code, under the GPL. That is literally the whole point of the GPL.

But let's imagine a different route.

A person is writing some code and can't work out how to solve a problem, so they ask on StackOverflow. Now another person comes along and answer the question by copy-pasting from your project into SO. The first person says "yay!" and then copies that code, and we repeat the above scenarios.

In an even more extreme case, imagine both of the above people work at the same large company - so neither knows or is even aware of the other - how does this impact what is going on? It's two people, but fundamentally the company is copying the original GPL code into SO, then copying it from SO into its proprietary code.

I get that MS and GitHub try to position it as if copilot is "creating code", but it is simply doing a statistical code completion that is demonstrably happy to copy and paste from the original source into the recipient code. To my mind all it is doing is providing a mechanism to launder GPL (or whatever) code into your own without the license, by slapping "ML" and "AI" on the process and requiring more than 3 keys to be involved.

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