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Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

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Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#81

Post by arcticbull »

V__ wrote: post #70
OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuc…

> The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better.

Oh no, here's hoping they learned a lesson from that money.

Without affordable gas, they'll be buying electric heaters. I believe that's already under way. [1]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germans-switch-costl...

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#82

Post by Isolus »

_dain_ wrote: post #6
DisjointedHunt wrote: post #2

They've only delayed it until its politically easier to shut it down. The German greens' leader has backed running Coal plants as an alternative[1] The whole political position of this party rests on their fanatic opposition to Nuclear power. [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/germany-russia-gas...

>The whole political position of this party rests on their fanatic opposition to Nuclear power. Btw if anyone thinks this is exaggeration, it's not. They are evil fanatics: https://twitter.com/giuliasaudelli/status/158097313099012505... >"Nuclear power and fossil fuels brought us here. They caused this crisis, they are not the solution." >Strong and at times emotional speech by Robert Habeck, after weeks under pressu…

> Reality: the Greens and their allies spent half a trillion USD on the "energy transition" and turned off perfectly good nuclear reactors. Result: energy shortages and diplomatic submission to Russia.

Um no. Renewable energy is now actually cheaper than nuclear energy. You could build renewable energy + storage within the same range of cost. The problem is the former government shut down nuclear power plants and then did exactly nothing.

The nuclear power plants aren't perfectly good. They are very old and would need a lot of investment if run for more than a couple of month.

And germany isn't even near electric energy shortages. It's currently supplying france with a lot of energy.

If electric heating were used everywhere from now on, there would be an electricity problem. But for that the electric heaters are missing.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#83

Post by V__ »

xg15 wrote: post #78
V__ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuc…

> Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. A number of cities also use district heating, where the heat is taken directly from…

Good point, and this is a thing in Switzerland, but not in Germany. Direct heating from nuclear plants, that is.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#84

Post by wander_homer »

jansan wrote: post #50
wander_homer wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm The grid isn't build for such a load.

Then how are they planning to supply the electricity for electric cars in future, if they cannot even supply sufficient electricity for some small heaters? An electric heater usually consumes 2000 Watt, that is not really something that should bring the electric grid to its knees.

By producing more energy, having less cars, better insulated houses, ... It's been calculated and described a thousand times by now by various institutes how this can be done. But obviously this can't be done in a few months, after the previous governments ignored experts for years.

> An electric heater usually consumes 2000 Watt, that is not really something that should bring the electric grid to its knees.

That's an additional 40GW when all gas-heated apartments use one of those heaters. You'd need ~30 additional nuclear reactors to sustain such a load -- the 3 remaining ones in Germany provide 1.4GW each.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#85

Post by V__ »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #75
V__ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuc…

> only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity German household electricity is double the price of America’s and considerably higher than France or Italy [1]. Were this not the case, more houses could be heated with electricity instead of gas and the coming recession made less painful. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price...

Absolutely. But the switch to heat pumps will take time and won't change the situation right now. The political procrastination of the last decades is biting Germany in the ass right now.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#86

Post by xg15 »

hef19898 wrote: post #9
OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals st…

> Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs.

This would be the case during normal times. We're not in normal times though. There has been widespread panic buying of portable electric heaters all throughout summer. Owners of single-family homes are also increasingly switching to heat pumps as the main source of heating (as is strongly encouraged by the government).

If we actually run into a gas crunch this winter, blackouts could ironically be a knock-on effect if everyone turns on their electric heater at the same time.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#87

Post by dependsontheq »

While I agree that it would have been sensible to phase out coal and then nuclear, the german position is more complex. The fallout from Tschernobyl was measurable in Germany… measurable as in my science teacher measured it in his garden. Up to today boar and mushrooms have an elevated level of radiation in the forests around my home. So this is the emotional background, the risks are not far away. Fukushima gave the debate another spin „If Japan can’t control the technology nobody can“.

I still thank shutting them off is wrong but I think there’s a lot of history in that decision. And it’s much more history than one party deciding that.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#88

Post by V__ »

arcticbull wrote: post #81
V__ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuc…

> The downside is, that they were already in the process of being shut down. They now need to undergo new safety checks, the fuel rods are nearly spend and this will cost 100 millions. Money which can be spent better. Oh no, here's hoping they learned a lesson from that money. Without affordable gas, they'll be buying electric heaters. I believe that's already under way. [1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energ…

Right now, gas prices are falling (since the gas storages are full) and federal assistance is currently in the works. So, while possible, I don't know how likely of a problem this will be.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#89

Post by YetAnotherNick »

xg15 wrote: post #78
V__ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether one is pro nuclear or not, I think it makes sense to look at the specific situation at hand. Was it a mistake to shut down all nuclear reactors while not pushing for more renewables and replacing all gas and coal plants first? I think so. Should the last three remaining nuclear plants be kept online? I don't think so. Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuc…

> Germany's main source of heating is gas and yes, gas is used to generate electricity, so nuclear can reduce gas consumption. However, only about 10% of gas is used for electricity and Germany has enough electricity. In a worst-case scenario, those nuclear power plants can help stabilize the grid, but they are not needed in general. A number of cities also use district heating, where the heat is taken directly from…

I wouldn't like nuclear water heating my house.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#90

Post by konschubert »

luckylion wrote: post #71
MichaelCollins wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is fair. Although I think some among the anti-nuclear movement may have had subversive intent, most of the people who ended up aligning with that movement did have good intentions. They were reasoning that in the long term, nuclear power would bring great misery to humanity. Long term thinking is good, right? If you believe in the eventual probability of those doomsday scenarios, and you value the…

I agree. The problem with that position is that pretty much everyone ever believed that their actions would make things better, even if they were very wrong and just made everything worse. Nevertheless, I don't think the anti-nuclear movement is evil. They're guided by extreme fear, not malice. I don't know how you can bring them around though, unless your offering some form of therapy. But even with that, would they…

Some people do things that they know are bad for others because they want to hurt others.
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