Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

lancengym.medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 328 posts

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#251

Post by notch656a »

niom wrote: post #229
throwup wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, except for the important detail that KYC requirements don't preclude the need for warrants... Banks and law enforcement frequently share data without caring about warrants. One example: if you send a $10K wire (in the US), your bank may voluntarily submit a Suspicious Activity Report. And since they may be liable if they choose not to report, but are not liable if they do report, guess which option they typic…

Warrants are not a high a hurdle in practice when they are needed. The US has the third-party doctrine, so all information you've communicated to someone does not need a warrant unless otherwise protected. In the US you need to establish real probable cause (otherwise the fruit may be poisoned), but PC is a low legal standard. Non-US jurisdictions don't use the fruit of the poisoned tree doctrine and so the actual le…

Hell with KYC a government imposed search of your papers is dictated by law without even a warrant/PC/RAS. Where I live, you can legally carry a concealed gun in a bank without ID but you can't open a damn account and put $20 even with a US passport (without some proof of address).

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#252

Post by uoaei »

crazygringo wrote: post #207
alexb_ wrote: post #80

I have refused to shop at numerous stores because they make a point of not accepting cash. Cash is incredibly important for modern society due to actually being untraceable and allowing for private transactions. Plus, a society without cash is one where you are forced to use central banking. Blockchain is just trying to imitate cash digitally, which as it turns out is really hard to do. So it just ends up that people…

Funny, I'm the opposite. I'm a tech guy and by this point I refuse to deal with grimy dirty worn pieces of paper in order to pay for anything. If a place is cash only, they simply lose out on my business. I'm done using their shitty ATM in the back with its $5 fee, never again. And I'm done helping these cash-only businesses evade their taxes. My communications are digital. My calendar is digital. My concert tickets…

> I'm a tech guy

Is it appropriate to bring identity politics into the discussion around the utility of cash? Or, why do your opinions matter here?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#253

Post by username_exists »

seanw444 wrote: post #135
breck wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really concerning. How are people going to use blockchain to do nefarious things if it's easier to track?

How are people going to do moral things against an immoral enforcer when the enforcer becomes immoral, if we assume all are too immoral to have the right to privacy?

Wish I could upvote this twice

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#254

Post by tadfisher »

jlarocco wrote: post #198
sixothree wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real answer is “then why are you so bad at tracking money?”.

I don't understand that response. Paper money was never designed to be tracked, and IMO that's a good thing. You're saying you'd like to see better tracking of paper money?

Paper money is tracked all the time. US bills have serial numbers. This has resulted in the arrest of bank robbers, ransomers, and hijackers in the past.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#255

Post by username_exists »

helf wrote: post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

so you're saying the blockchain is not made up of physical blocks?

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#256

Post by notch656a »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #249

I do struggle with the "you coppers will never track me with my new cryptocoin!" mentality I see around (and on this thread). I do not subscribe that the view that "innocent have nothing to fear". If our transactions are visible for all to see then huge amounts of privacy issues become salient. It's just that I don't believe secrecy is the solution. Firstly, there is no digital secrecy. But mean maybe you have years…

I object to the whole notion of laundering. Prosecute the underlying crime. Obscuring the source/nature of money (aka privacy) should not be a crime.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#257

Post by maxwell »

alexb_ wrote: post #203
maxwell wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but that taco shop m̶u̶s̶t̶ may have to accept cash if they want to operate in Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, D.C., Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, or Tennessee. Or Berkeley, Chicago, or San Francisco. And everywhere else in the U.S. if the Payment Choice Act passes. https://www.cashmatters.org/blog/america-legislates-fo…

Are you positive about Michigan? My most recent interaction with a cashless store was during a trip to Detroit, where a convenience store attached to a very large bank building made a very public point about not accepting cash. To include a large banner at the entrance of the store remarking about them being proudly cash free.

Thanks for pushing back, yeah I'm not able to confirm that list, edited my comment.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#258

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

JackFr wrote: post #202
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not found a shop that refuses cash, but if I did I would also refuse to shop there. It shouldn't even be legal for a shop to refuse cash. I understand the grey area of some asshat coming in with $300 of pennies, but outside of those edge cases, it should be illegal to operate a physical store without accepting cash, and without putting in limits to convince people not to use cash.

Stores should be perfectly free not to accept cash. While our money says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private", that assumes there has been a meeting of the minds who agree to conclude a transaction. But up until that point I don't see an obligation. And I don't see using the force of government to compel people to do something increases their freedom.

Which means the unbanked cannot do business there.

How do the unbanked pay their electric bill?

1 of three ways.

1. They walk into the electric company directly and pay directly (no fees)

2. They walk into a store that "supports" said electric company and pay (with fees)

3. They find a kiosk that accepts the cash and pay (with fees).

1 implies they have access to a vehicle or that they take public transportation. The problem is that public transportation is trading their TIME for money, the other problem being, public transportation only exists in cities.

These sorts of policies have an adverse effect on the poor, making them poorer and increasing the likelihood that they cannot exist in our society.

The question is, what are the benefits of not accepting cash?

The answer is that it's cheaper for the business.

I'm ok requiring businesses to pay that expense if it means people can walk into a physical store and be guaranteed to purchase something.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#259

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

scrlk wrote: post #208
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not found a shop that refuses cash, but if I did I would also refuse to shop there. It shouldn't even be legal for a shop to refuse cash. I understand the grey area of some asshat coming in with $300 of pennies, but outside of those edge cases, it should be illegal to operate a physical store without accepting cash, and without putting in limits to convince people not to use cash.

> I understand the grey area of some asshat coming in with $300 of pennies In the UK, coins are only considered to be legal tender up to a certain amount. This amount varies depending upon the value of the coin. See: https://www.royalmint.com/help/trm-faqs/legal-tender-amounts... Is there any equivalent rule in the US?

not that I'm aware of, but I'm not a legal expert either.

Re: Chainalysis CTO said blockchain is easier to trace than paper money

#260

Post by nohankyou »

username_exists wrote: post #255
helf wrote: post #52

“No shit”. Wait, you mean something that literally tracks any and all actions in a literal chain of history that is immutable is easy to track?!? You mean that pattern recognition can be applied to even “randomized” in both size, time, and destination of transactions can be done to track like how they can track burner phones? I’m shocked! Shocked I say!

so you're saying the blockchain is not made up of physical blocks?

It isn't? Crap, I've been investing in Lego this whole time.
Post reply on HN