Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns • Hacker News Board

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#21

Post by dumpsterlid » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #14

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

> in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. Where is this suggested by the Oakland PD?

........

.......

..... do you honestly think that if you give police remote control vehicles with shotguns attached to them that they WONT use them for violence and killing? These are police we are talking about here, they come from a culture of violence and extreme fear.

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#22

Post by justin66 » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #16

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

Hi Sam Biddle, I think it is common knowledge that writers don't choose their titles, editors do, so I wasn't criticizing your article, I was criticizing the title. These devices are not robots. They are remote control devices operated by humans. Oxford: robot, a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer. Robots act autonomously and automatica…

The police call the machine in question a robot, the army calls it a robot, even the manufacturer calls the machine in question a robot.

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#23

Post by _fat_santa » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

labrador wrote: post #3

Clickbait title. Remote control bomb disposal devices with an explosive charge to detonate bombs are hardly "robots with shotguns"

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

My massive problem with tech like this is it violates the basic principle of: "you only kill when your life is in danger". If a cop is chasing a suspect and the suspect pulls out a gun and starts shooting a the cop, the cop would be right to shoot back and kill the suspect. But you can't apply that standard to something that isn't living, if a cop is directing a robot to chase a suspect and the suspect start shooting at the robot, the same standard just does not apply.

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#24

Post by ericmcer » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

labrador wrote: post #3

Clickbait title. Remote control bomb disposal devices with an explosive charge to detonate bombs are hardly "robots with shotguns"

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

There is a pretty huge distinction between an RC car with a camera and an attachment that can load a single shell into it and the "shotgun-toting robot" that your article conjures.

Doesn't the chief of police have to personally authorize the use of one of these robots? Do you find these scary even when used appropriately? Or is your fear that this is a slippery slope that ends in an autonomous robot sticking a shotgun in your face and demanding your ID?

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#25

Post by fumeux_fume » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #3

Clickbait title. Remote control bomb disposal devices with an explosive charge to detonate bombs are hardly "robots with shotguns"

So you didn't read the part where police officials start descibing scenarios where it would be appropriate to arm the "bomb disposal device" with actual shotgun shells to kill people? Or the part where police refuse to prohibit the use of shotgun shells because they may want to use them one day? Or you just didn't bother to get that far before commenting?

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#26

Post by MichaelZuo » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

samfbiddle wrote: post #17

MichaelZuo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. Where is this suggested by the Oakland PD?

It wasn't suggested, it was explicitly stated in the meetings and in the proposed authorized use language, both of which you will conveniently find quoted in the article.

No?

I'm seeing at most: ' Lt. Joseph Turner' 'urged the commission to allow such a killer robot in case of “exigencies.”'

He does not appear to speak on behalf of the Oakland PD but on behalf of his own private views.

The official spokesperson appears to be: 'Lt. Omar Daza-Quiroz, who represented the department in discussions over the authorized robot use policy'

His claim that “Yes, we are looking into that and doing more research at this time.” is even farther.

There's also: 'According to Daza-Quiroz, the department is still looking toward the future. “We will not be arming robots with lethal rounds anytime soon, and if, and when that time comes each event will be assessed prior to such deployment,” he said.'

Even the closest of his claims: 'When asked if there were other situations beyond a Dallas-style sniper in which police might wish to kill with a robot, Daza-Quiroz added: “Absolutely there are many more scenarios.”'

Seems like expressing the fact that there imaginable scenarios where such a system is desirable. Not that the Oakland PD wants to do so.

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#27

Post by JieJie » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #16

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

Hi Sam Biddle, I think it is common knowledge that writers don't choose their titles, editors do, so I wasn't criticizing your article, I was criticizing the title. These devices are not robots. They are remote control devices operated by humans. Oxford: robot, a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer. Robots act autonomously and automatica…

Northrop-Grumman calls this specific model a robot in their press release.

https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/releases/northrop-grum...

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#28

Post by subjectsigma » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

labrador wrote: post #3

Clickbait title. Remote control bomb disposal devices with an explosive charge to detonate bombs are hardly "robots with shotguns"

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

Seeing the title I immediately thought of something AI/ML controlled. I read the article and thought the robot was autonomous up until more than halfway through where you mention it is remote-controlled. You even compare it to a Roomba, which is autonomous. It is confusing. Putting that it the first paragraph would make the article sound much different.

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#29

Post by _ph_ » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #16

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

Hi Sam Biddle, I think it is common knowledge that writers don't choose their titles, editors do, so I wasn't criticizing your article, I was criticizing the title. These devices are not robots. They are remote control devices operated by humans. Oxford: robot, a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer. Robots act autonomously and automatica…

It was described in the article. That a police, which already is accused of using excessive force, gets a new means of killing people, remotely.

Re: Oakland cops hope to arm robots with lethal shotguns

#30

Post by samfbiddle » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #16

samfbiddle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, author of the article here. I don't care if you read my story or don't, but if you're going to accuse me of "clickbait," I'd encourage you to actually read it. The plan here is to literally load live 12 gauge shells into the robot's PAN disrupter device, which typically only takes blank rounds, in order to shoot and kill people under special emergency circumstances. It's a shotgun. But don't take it from me, take…

Hi Sam Biddle, I think it is common knowledge that writers don't choose their titles, editors do, so I wasn't criticizing your article, I was criticizing the title. These devices are not robots. They are remote control devices operated by humans. Oxford: robot, a machine capable of carrying out a complex series of actions automatically, especially one programmable by a computer. Robots act autonomously and automatica…

It's considered a robot by its manufacturer (https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/releases/northrop-grum...), the police who own it, and California state law, so I am confident in my choice of terms here.